Bizzaro World

Mr_Cyberpunk · Post by **Mr_Cyberpunk** » Sun May 06, 2007 2:29 am

Yeah I used to check out the forums at PDX a little bit and I know what happened. I dislike "you can't do that" guys and "I want everything in the mod because I assume you have no life aside from modding" guys and I've had to deal with a lot of them in my time so I know how annoying it can be to have people pick on you just for actually "TRYING" to do something. Plus I like to have faith in things, which I've noticed a lot of the modding community in general (heck even the video games industry) is lacking.

So I sorta know where El Cid is coming from - but yeah his behavior was a bit impetuous.

Post by **Jonas** » Sun May 06, 2007 10:36 am

So what you're saying, basically, is that you dislike people handing out advice from personal experience?

Mr_Cyberpunk · Post by **Mr_Cyberpunk** » Sun May 06, 2007 11:24 am

dislike people handing out advice from personal experience?

No.. I didn't say that. I mean people that just go around spreading negative comments about projects just to dis-hearten the developers. (things like "you're skills as a programmer are pathetic" "your game sucks (even though it isn't even 10% finished)")

I like comments like "this would be a nice feature because...[state evidence]" "I like your artwork but I thought the style would best look like this because...[state evidence]" "this game isn't as good as it should be but given that you are only 10% into the development would it be possible to change your direction to something similar.. [state similarities]"

Jonas you've given out good comments like I just mentioned a few times before. Encouragement is the best thing people can do instead of just attacking ideas all the time saying "this will fail" or "this will suck" because we're not professionals, we don't get paid and we don't do this often so gamers can't expect to treat us like most professional developers.

If a game comes out.. it comes out because the funding ensured it.
If a mod or stand alone project comes out for free.. it comes out because people have encouraged the developers to continue.

If a person is heading down the wrong track then yes correct them - but persuade them to change direction rather than treat people like they've been stupid and made a mistake.

My policy is develop what you want to commit yourself to (Because it is YOUR project) then if no one likes what you've done take the criticism into account later in the project (if the demand is great for a particular issue to be fixed and that you can see their point) and then work on that to ensure a more pleasurable gaming experience for the greater community.

I hate early criticism as it is just deterring me from releasing builds and content earlier, a part of me would just rather leave everyone out of the loop like how the professionals do (Eg. Fallout3).

My tech demo for Neuromancer received mix reviews. The negative (which was rare but did happen) didn't seem to understand the point of a TechDemo and frankly pissed me off because they attacked my skills as a programmer and artist, the positive was good and they got me thinking of ways that I can improve the project. I'm presently working on a Revision Design Document that is taking in the constructive crit for the Alpha version (such as following the book more closely, introducing new gameplay elements and building better environments full of movement and depth). Developer Morale is ultra important in the success of projects so its not nice when someone says "YOU SUCK!" because that makes people feel like everything they have just done meant nothing and there is no point in going on with the project.

Also I want to say this.. Even experienced guys screw up sometimes. Even the professionals do so I think gamers expect too much because they are use to professional game development. This is annoying when you are being compared to people who not only get paid to do this for a living but actually have training and experience in that area. (Neuromancer is my first attempt at building a full-featured complete video game..)

This is directed at other people I have met in the Cyberpunk and Modding community and not at anyone here because most of the crit I have had for Neuromancer has been good all round. I can't comment on NV because I'm not really in charge of the project rather just assisting Snipa where I can. When I was with HDTP I always took crit in as the team would know- so yeah I do listen to critique.

I just figured I'd bring this issue up because it has annoyed me for the last few months.. plus I can't work on Neuromancer till I get my tablet repaired/replaced.

Post by **Jonas** » Sun May 06, 2007 1:02 pm

Assuming we're still talking about the reaction El Cid received when he announced his Power & Love mod, you need to remember none of us wanted to sabotage his project, but he showed up in the PDX forums without any modding experience, nothing but an idea for a mod, asking for help. From experience, we knew an ambitious mod project with a large team can be Hell to carry through, so we advised him to consider a different approach.

Considering that Cid's mod is no longer run by him and is still not finished, I'd say we were right. But of course it never mattered whether we were right or wrong, the problem was the way he reacted to the advice we gave him.

My favourite part of all this, of course, is that I was one of the few people to back up El Cid when the flame war broke out, but over the course of several months, he managed to antagonize me to such a degree that I blocked him from MSN. And now he seems convinced that I would like to kill him...? I'm not sure how the Hell that happened.

Mr_Cyberpunk · Post by **Mr_Cyberpunk** » Sun May 06, 2007 9:49 pm

Haven't you read the news. "Video Game players are mass murderers" - Jack Thompson.

I understand what you mean, you deemed something not feasible and offered evidence for a change in direction. There had been plenty of failed mods before your fight even broke out so yeah they are perfect case studies.

that guy · Post by **that guy** » Mon May 07, 2007 10:50 am

What I love is that Jac thompson likens himself to batman in the way he fights injustice. Batman was a violent vigilante.

Mr_Cyberpunk · Post by **Mr_Cyberpunk** » Mon May 07, 2007 11:57 am

And a Ninja

Ninjas are evil

Now lets all go and play GTA4 just to piss him off.

chris the cynic · Post by **chris the cynic** » Mon May 07, 2007 1:24 pm

An interesting thing is to, for a moment, throw aside all sanity and try to see it his way.

After the Virginia Tech shooting Jack said:

"This is not rocket science. When a kid who has never killed anyone in his life goes on a rampage and looks like the Terminator, he's a video gamer."

And:

"He might have killed somebody but he wouldn't have killed 32 if he hadn't rehearsed it and trained himself like a warrior on virtual reality. It can't be done. It just doesn't happen."

Now that we know the shooter neither "rehearsed it" in a game nor "trained himself like a warrior on virtual reality." It logically follows that it couldn't be done and thus did not happen.

So that would mean that what happened was not the worst shooting in US history (because it didn't happen) and thus the title to worst school shooting goes to the 1966 shooting at the University of Texas in Austin, which predates commercial videogames.

There is an interesting similarity to the two, 25 year old Charles Whitman killed two women -his mother and wife- then went to campus and killed many people, 23 year old Seung-Hui Cho killed two women -of no relation to him for no apparent reason- and then went to a different part of campus and killed many people.

Anyway, in Jack's mind it is impossible for the Virginia Tech shooting to have happened because there were no videogames involved, thus it must not have happened. (I'm sure the families and friends of the victims will be happy to get the good news.) Yet the history of people going on rampages in schools in the US tells us that it is possible to kill 15 people. So 15 people without videogames is possible but 32 is not, there is clearly some kind of a cutoff between the two where you need a videogame to kill one more. But if you kill people in such a way you look like the Terminator you are a video gamer regardless of the numbers, and this all makes sense because it's not rocket science.

At this point it is a good idea to return to sanity.

Post by **Jonas** » Mon May 07, 2007 1:41 pm

Uhm Chris, to be fair, I wouldn't call that to "see it his way". I would call that a parody

Jetsetlemming · Post by **Jetsetlemming** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:44 pm

This is a topic fitting of a thread named Bizarro World. Jack Thompson and Dr. Phil decry videogames are at fault, everyone else in the media looks for SOMETHING they want to blame (The Daily Show did a great segment on this), and WHAT national talking head defends videogames and common sense and says we shouldn't jump to conclusions? Rush motherfucking Limbaugh. He realized that the people bitching about videogames are using the same rhetoric and non-sequitors as the anti-gun lobby, apparently, and decided to side on the side of common sense.
Yeah.
Fucking what the hell. Has the rivers of the world turned to blood yet?

chris the cynic · Post by **chris the cynic** » Mon May 07, 2007 9:51 pm

Having him be the voice of reason is disturbing.

Mr_Cyberpunk · Post by **Mr_Cyberpunk** » Mon May 07, 2007 9:54 pm

Wait Dr.Phil.. The same Dr.Phil that was handing out Playstations and Wiis is accusing them of creating mass murderers..

SELL OUT!

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » Mon May 07, 2007 9:58 pm

Postal 2 is one of my favorite games. Therefore one of my favorite pastimes is killing people.

Oh shit, wait, I'm a vegetarian and heavily against cruelty to animals and also against abortion.

Go you, Jack!

Jetsetlemming · Post by **Jetsetlemming** » Tue May 08, 2007 6:14 am

Ew, vegetarianism. Are you also communist? That's what I hear.

*cough*Red bastard*cough*

Mr_Cyberpunk · Post by **Mr_Cyberpunk** » Tue May 08, 2007 6:26 am

"GO BACK TO RUSSIA" - Barney Gumbel
hahaha