alright TNM is a FANTASTIC game that rivals deus ex and in many areas even proves to be even better than deus ex no questions there. but as far as characters, story and atmosphere is concerned i think deus ex still wins...
just to cite an example- Take the Airfield mission in deus ex. the part where u talk to Lebedev and start questioning your loyalties towards UNATCO-that was one of the most memorable segments in the game. it was emotional andwas definitely atmospheric. TNM just didnt have that level of depth and atmosphere.
Hiya, welcome to the forums. While I can't disagree with your points re Deus Ex, TNM was made by a group of guys, hobbyist game developers, learning their trade as they went. Deus Ex had guys who knew their trade, so for what OTP achieved with TNM is phenomenal. Anyhow... DX for atmosphere, and TNM for the entertainment. While JC rulz, Phasmatis is great, he's loyal, even-handed, but doesn't take shit from anybody...and in the game.
Growing old is inevitable.......Growing up is optional
While bobby has a point, I still think its largely irrelevant. Who made it and under what circumstances should have no impact on what you feel about the final product. A good game is a good game regardless of whether it was made by 2 guys in a bedroom or 50 guys in an office complex and the same should hold for bad games.
As for the actual topic on hand, I kinda agree. Deus Ex has better story/world-building/atmosphere/consistency/etc but TNM has better gameplay imo.
"Delays are temporary; mediocrity is forever."
odio ergo sum
I'm actually going to disagree there. You're unlikely to find someone who likes the Deus Ex story more than I do and I'm definitely not going to argue that TNM's story clearly surpassed Deus Ex's, but I think TNM's story, atmosphere and characters all rival those of Deus Ex.
TNM makes it easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys, so you never get something like where Lebedev and Paul tell make you start to realize that you might be on the wrong side, but if you want something that is emotional and makes you question your loyalties, I would place pretty much any of the instances where the PDX guys point out that you're a compete asshole during the WC storyline on par with the airfield. From Phas' hurt statement that you should have just told him how you felt and he would have changed for you, to DD's defiant, "Yes it is, Trestkon! That's exactly what it is! This isn't Earth, this is Forumplanet! Everything here is black and white!*" TNM isn't lacking in emotional loyalty questioning moments**.
Or consider Alex Jacobson. What do you know about Alex? He's willing to leave UNATCO and join the good guys once he realizes that UNATCO isn't the good guys, so that's something. And that's basically it. We know he likes internet radio stations. We know he plays games. We know ... what exactly? Compare that to TNM's versions of Alex.
For the good guys we have Evil Invasion at mission control. He's a fan of democracy to the point that he actually founded a political party whose sole purposes is to bring about democracy in Forum City, but he's enough of a pragmatist that when he realized that was impossible to do from the outside, he took a job inside and tried to change things from there. Much of his time is spent working on a newspaper, a job he enjoys. While he is capable of hacking he only does it when he needs to and thus considers himself a programmer rather than a hacker. His past haunts him because once upon a time he was programmer for World Corp and when he was there he was so focused on whether or not he could do things that he forgot to ask whether or not he should, he was so focused on overcoming challenges that he never asked what the result would be. The result of that shortsighted unchecked hubris was Black Ice a big brother like brain frying corporate surveillance and security system which has damaged an unknown number of people including at least one child. He wants to set things right.
For the bad guys we have That Guy at mission control. He started in the same place as Evil Invasion but instead of becoming disgusted with himself and trying to change the world for the better he decided to wallow in it. He watches over Black Ice to this day, he hacks into peoples email accounts, he screws with people's lives. He injured people and got NVShacker fired for the hell of it. On the subject of NVS, he isolated him from Evil by screwing with private communications. He spends his time hacking people's computers and servers. He treats people asking for tech support poorly. He places trojan horses and various spyware programs on his coworkers accounts (and gets in trouble with his boss because if he were doing it right his co workers wouldn't know about it.) He is too lazy to show up for work and thus has found a way to project himself into the office holographically.
The TNM characters actually seem to be a good deal more fleshed out. Where Alex is a vague good guy techie, I've got a pretty specific feel for who Evil Invasion and That Guy are as people. Don't get me wrong, I like Alex, I don't think his character is deficient or anything like that, but Alex is defined largely by the role he fills and the impressions we have of him are almost entirely derived from what he choses to say about the present situation, the tone he chooses to say it in, and the words and phrasing he uses. You've got a feel for who he is and how he acts in the present moment, but no idea what led him there or where he might be going afterwards.
What would Alex do in the Tong Ending? We don't know, everything we know about him is entirely related to his role as computer guy. Take away computers and you remove almost everything we know about the character. What would Evil Invasion do? Probably run a newspaper. What would That Guy do? Hard to be sure, but it would definitely involve being an arrogant jerk.
As I said, I'm a very big fan of Deus Ex's story. While other people are talking gameplay, I'll be talking story. When other people are talking graphics, you'll find me talking story. Story is more or less what I do. Deus Ex's story is very complex, very deep, and presents you with constant indications of a world beyond what you see. You know that there was a disaster in Nigeria and you know that there's fighting in Austin. You see how the pieces fit together. You peel back layers and see the truth that lies hidden under the lies. It's fucking amazing. The fact that, as near as I can tell, every flaw people have claimed to have found in the story falls away when examined closely only adds to its greatness.
But TNM is hardly lacking in this department either.
The Nameless Mod, just like Deus Ex, delivers many reminders that the world we walk through doesn't end at the edges of the maps. Whether it is mention of a company we never see, or a district we can never reach, or mention of another of the cities on forum planet, there is always something to remind us that there is more to the world than what is in front of us. As in Deus Ex you find the various processes and see how they fit together, you peel back the layers to see the truth that lies hidden under the lies and rumor. The story is complex and it is deep. I actually spent my entire morning writing about it. (I write three pages of whatever comes to mind every morning shortly after I wake up. This morning I got to talking about TNM's story and kept going right passed three, it was noon or near noon, I don't remember exactly, when I stopped. Even then I could have kept going.)
-
* For the full effect, consider that the next two sentences are, "Choosing sides is so easy. Why are you going to kill me?" Having the person you were hired to rescue, someone you know from the old days, ask you, "Why are you going to kill me?" is the stuff of emotional scenes.
** Unfortunately, like Deus Ex, you aren't really given a choice to choose your loyalties at these moments. Deus Ex never lets you choose, and in TNM pretty much all of the moments come after you've made your choice.
chris the cynic wrote:(I write three pages of whatever comes to mind every morning shortly after I wake up. This morning I got to talking about TNM's story and kept going right passed three, it was noon or near noon, I don't remember exactly, when I stopped. Even then I could have kept going.)
Wow. How long does three pages take you?
Also, do you have a blog or website?
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.
chris the cynic wrote:(I write three pages of whatever comes to mind every morning shortly after I wake up. This morning I got to talking about TNM's story and kept going right passed three, it was noon or near noon, I don't remember exactly, when I stopped. Even then I could have kept going.)
Wow. How long does three pages take you?
Also, do you have a blog or website?
It's supposed to take about half an hour to an hour (tending heavily towards the half an hour side) and be stream of consciousness do not stop writing no matter what even if that means writing, "I don't know what to write" constantly. It tends to take me longer than it should (maybe I've done it in half an hour once or twice, maybe) and I have a tendency to pause where I'm not supposed to. I'll just find myself staring into space, or thinking thoughts that are entirely wordless, or thinking a lot but not getting any of it on the page.
I do not have a blog or a website. Well, I do have a website (I might actually have two) I just don't have anything on it.
chris the cynic wrote:(I write three pages of whatever comes to mind every morning shortly after I wake up. This morning I got to talking about TNM's story and kept going right passed three, it was noon or near noon, I don't remember exactly, when I stopped. Even then I could have kept going.)
Wow. How long does three pages take you?
Also, do you have a blog or website?
It's supposed to take about half an hour to an hour (tending heavily towards the half an hour side) and be stream of consciousness do not stop writing no matter what even if that means writing, "I don't know what to write" constantly. It tends to take me longer than it should (maybe I've done it in half an hour once or twice, maybe) and I have a tendency to pause where I'm not supposed to. I'll just find myself staring into space, or thinking thoughts that are entirely wordless, or thinking a lot but not getting any of it on the page.
I do not have a blog or a website. Well, I do have a website (I might actually have two) I just don't have anything on it.
Oh Okay Cool. I'd been taught to do something similar in my English Language Classes at college but would never have time to do so every morning on account of me not being a morning person.
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.
I think both Deus Ex and TNM are extremely atmospheric and emotional. But I totally can't choose which one is more atmospheric... Like it's really annoying to me for example to put my favourite games Deus Ex, Max Payne, Half-Life, F.E.A.R., Heroes of Might and Magic etc and their mods into a good rank order. It's always so difficult to compare them but I must say that The Nameless Mod is something I couldn't have lived without. If I was on my death bed and heard about TNM then - damn I'd be upset. TNM is just that lovable. I can't say it in words how great TNM is, but... well I guess I could, but then I would have to write a 10-page essay
I think two Deus-Ex and TNM play in the same league what goes for story, characters and the world. Deus-Ex is stronger in the over-all story while TNM pays more attention to individuals. But in summary both are great so I could not rank them properly.
but I must say that The Nameless Mod is something I couldn't have lived without. If I was on my death bed and heard about TNM then - damn I'd be upset. TNM is just that lovable. I can't say it in words how great TNM is, but... well I guess I could, but then I would have to write a 10-page essay 
