TNM 1.0.5 test help

[Jonas]

Good idea, I'll forward it to Nick

[nerdenstein]

I've managed to replicate the bank issue but it only seems to happen after a few missions, which is a little odd.
And it doesn't happen all the time. Actually, technically that means I haven't been able to replicated it, it just happened again.
Sorry I couldn't be much help on that one.

One feature I'd quite like to have seen is the ability to store items in a room (PDX Armoury, Ravings Locker Room for example) and for them to appear after DXI. Shifter did manage to do it for JC Dentons Office but I wasn't sure it was completely feasible or worth doing for TNM. It was just annoying having to make a final selection of items to take with you and remembering to keep enough space for the Firestaff too.

Also, No one is on the IRC chat anymore. I enjoyed previous conversations I've had on it. Bot or not.

[Hassat Hunter]

Someone made a MOD for that.

[nerdenstein]

Really? Where?

[Jonas]

I have a hard time explaining precisely why, but I just don't like the idea of a persistent item storage location well enough to want to spend the time implementing it. It's mostly gut instinct on this one, I expect that it would encourage some behaviour that I don't really like. Sorry that you won't get a better justification.

[that guy]

Agreed. There's not just the technical cost of getting the code/map working. There's also the balance cost of figuring out how to stop the play from wanting to constantly traipse back to their storage location to effectively increase the size of their inventory (a valuable resource).

[nerdenstein]

I have a hard time explaining precisely why, but I just don't like the idea of a persistent item storage location well enough to want to spend the time implementing it. It's mostly gut instinct on this one, I expect that it would encourage some behaviour that I don't really like. Sorry that you won't get a better justification.

No worries. I guess it is a key aspect of the game; the whole inventory management thing. And as that guy said, I kinda assumed it'd be quite difficult to accomplish. It was just something I was thinking about whilst playing the game.

[rdaneel]

Hi. I came to this thread hoping to find a solution to the "ATM bug" but after reading the entire thread of posts up to this point, I figured I might as well add my +1 to the verification of the issue.

First and foremost, HOLY CRAP I LOVE THIS MOD! It's difficult to find words to express how impressed I am with this group and the product. Thank you for finally creating the *real* spiritual successor to Deus Ex (and yes, I do not even consider Human Revolution to be that).

Now to business... Currently on my very first playthrough of TNM 1.0.4 (no plus) (PDX line) I have encountered the "ATM bug". Not knowing quite what to expect, I didn't fully realize it was a bug until I had already slurped out several thousand credits and noticed the pattern of accounts refilling each time I loaded the corporate district map. Contrary to what's been said elsewhere in this thread, at least in *my* game the credits *do not* seem to refill when loading specifically the Corporate map, or (as others have said) when loading *any* hub map. In fact, I have found it to be quite the opposite. The hub maps work fine and maintain the correct ATM balance when they load. However, it's all the *other* maps (the non-hub maps) that cause the ATM balance to reset. Here's a summary of the testing I've done. Before making each of these tests I made sure the ATM balance for the Trestkon account was at a 0 balance. Then I did the test. I recorded the result. In each case of loading hub maps, I used the voodoo teleporters (but didn't load the voodoo map except where noted). I assume that all ATMs within the same map show the same balance (they seem to).

Starting in Corporate with 0 balance
Corporate > Ravings = 0 balance (correct behavior)
Ravings > Corporate = 0 balance (correct behavior)
Corporate > Slums = 0 balance (correct behavior)
Slums > Corporate = 0 balance (correct behavior)
Corporate > Downtown = 0 balance (correct behavior)
Downtown > Corporate = 0 balance (correct behavior)
Corporate > PartyZone > Corporate = 500 balance (incorrect behavior)
Back to 0 balance
Corporate > Voodoo > Corporate (via teleport booth) = 500 balance (incorrect behavior)
Back to 0 balance
Corporate > Downtown = 0 balance (correct behavior)
Downtown > Sol's > Downtown = 500 balance (incorrect behavior)
Back to 0 balance
Downtown > Slums = 0 balance (correct behavior)
Slums > Voodoo > Slums (via telebport booth) = 500 balance (incorrect behavior)
Back to 0 balance
Slums > Downtown = 0 balance (correct behavior)

Also, I *thought* that at one time I saw the balance revert to 500 when I did a Corporate > Slums > Downtown leapfrog, but I cannot subsequently reproduce this and it might have been an artifact of my own confusion of sequence of events. At any rate, if it happened, it was an extreme anomaly since as of this writing I seem to be able to move freely between the 3 hub maps (BTW, this is still day 1) and the balance is always correct. When I load any "side" map such as a bar or building interior, the ATM balance reverts to full.

Unfortunately, that's all I can say since I wasn't keeping close track of my banking activities in the early game. If there's some player action that triggers the bug in the early game, I don't know what I might or might not have done. In fact, I thought perhaps that the funds were coming back into the accounts due to correct game behavior (PDX keeping Trestkon well funded with salary payments or something, Winquman and Pointman's neighbor making regular deposits into their respective accounts perhaps) - but eventually I noticed the pattern, suspected a bug, came searching, and found you all here. Good luck, keep up the amazing work, and I look forward to getting my hands on a copy of 1.0.5 as soon as it's ready. I'll be glad to test a new build as well if it would help.

PS. I think I'll keep my 5,000 stolen in-game credits as payment for QA testing.

R.D.Olivaw

[Jonas]

wow thanks, that's a solid dataset. I've linked your post to Nick, we'll see if this helps.

And thanks for your kind words

[Hassat Hunter]

Have you checked the weapon shop?

Might be related to levels without ATM then?

[rdaneel]

I don't know why I didn't think of that, but yes that theory seems to fit the data quite well. I did test Raving's weapon shop (via Corporate, the only way in) and it preserves the correct ATM balance. Now I'm trying to think of another non-hub map that has an ATM to test and verify. Can you think of another one? Goat City I suppose? Any others?

Also, I want to quickly mention that there might be other players like me out there that don't realize that this isn't expected game behavior until they've already exploited it too much to be sure how drastically it has affected their playthrough. In my case, I can say that I would have noticed the bug right away and stopped taking credits out of the dead accounts if it wasn't for one thing I heard in the training mission. In the training mission, Phasmatis warns Trestkon not to hack ATMs willy-nilly because he will kill real accounts (and the ATMs themselves) in the process. Phasmatis also says that Trestkon "could have gotten more money out of these accounts later" if he hadn't hacked them.

I'm just sort of curious, why does Phasmatis say this in the training mission? Everything I've subsequently read elsewhere on the forums and wikis seems to indicate that once you have cleaned out a given account number, that's supposed to be the end of that account anyway - a la traditional Deus Ex behavior. In fact, I find the whole "global ATM" implementation in TNM confusing unless there's something that happens later in the game to legitimately refill accounts, or unless there's some in-game reason that Trestkon needs to use the ATM to hide or store or transport his credits at some point. Now that I think of it, that would be a really cool game puzzle dynamic. But let me be as clear as possible on this: I think the global ATM implementation is amazing, incredible, awesome, and has huge gameplay potential, but I'm curious to understand what purpose it's intended to serve in TNM if (and this is the big if that I don't really know, since I haven't played all the way through) the ATM accounts are designed to be one-shot credit infusions from a game balance perspective, as in Deus Ex.

Anyway, not looking for any spoilers here, but just curious about Phasmatis' comment in the training mission and whether the ATM system is supposed to be *functionally* different in TNM versus pure DX, or whether it was just a neato feature that somebody wanted to implement.

Thanks,
RDO

[rdaneel]

I think I just answered my own question. Phasmatis says this because he's trying to tell you that if you have insufficient computer skill, you will get less credits from a given hacked account than the actual account balance, AND you will kill it to 0 in the process. He doesn't mean that you can revisit ATM accounts more than once (if they are already at 0), he means that if you wait to find the account PIN instead of hacking the account, you can guarantee getting at least the full available balance from that account.

I get it now.

I misunderstood Phasmatis in the training mission and I thought he meant that live accounts could be plundered more than once. This understanding fit in nicely with my observation that accounts seemed to be refilling themselves. I'm sure there are others out there that have had the same experience.

[ggrotz]

Actually hacking on master skill typically pulls twice the account balance. So if you are looking for credits out of ATMs it's always best to hack. Though you might have better luck prioritizing other skill sets in the game.

FWIW, I recall that the only real difference between TNM and vanilla DX wrt ATMs is that the ATMs are global. Meaning like in DX, you could only plug a certain account into a certain ATM in the game and have it work. In TNM, you can plug an account # into ANY ATM. In that sense, if an account is refilling so you can repeat an access, then it is a bug (and as I recall, one like that does or DID exist in TNM).

Of course, I could be wrong.

[Hassat Hunter]

Nope you're right.
Also that master gives 1.5x (IIRC) the amount of money of an account, so hacking at higher levels is indeed beneficial.
However it disables the ATM (as mentioned) and the account with PIN might not be the next in "line", so first picking up the money, than hacking is best.

[PlausibleSarge]

Suggestion:

After reading this thread (http://www.offtopicproductions.com/foru ... 14&t=11245) I started considering a way to fix the "I didn't even know I had those items" flaw.

The simplest way to fix it would be to add a simple mission text to the first level (I cant remember if it already has one) saying something along the lines of

"Reconnecting account.....100%"
"Downloading Weapon Locker Access Key......Complete"
"Downloading ATM Account Details...............Complete"
"Downloading Downtown Map Image.............Complete"
"3 new item(s) received. Check Datavault!"

Of course, this could also be done in a transmission or something


Or you could just ignore me and my stupid ideas