The Matrix, or .hack//SIGN as influence?

[Dark Reality]

I can't remember who, I think Phas when you first talk to him in the apartment, describes Forum City as similar to The Matrix, but it's really not like the Matrix at all. While the Matrix movies are the closest approximation to what TNM is doing, plot-wise, Japan has a story that is much more similar to TNM than The Matrix - .hack//SIGN. It did air on Cartoon Network in 2003 or 2004 here in the States, but never really got popular. No sex or nudity, no real fast action, it wasn't comical at all, but it did have appeal for the technical and forum-centric.

So, here are six solid reasons Forum City is unlike the Matrix but more like The World in .hack//SIGN at the same time:

1. The citizens of Forum City in TNM are there because they're fans of Deus Ex and choose to interact with other fans in this way. The players of The World, the game in .hack//SIGN, are there because they chose that venue to socialize and can play a game at the same time. However, in The Matrix, people are plugged in against their will. Further:

2. The citizens of Forum City and the players of The World know what they're doing, where in The Matrix, everybody thinks the Matrix is the real world. Also:

3. Forum City is a themed virtual world based on a game. The World *is* a game. The Matrix is not a game (though Neo and the Agents treat it like one) and strives to be as realistic as possible. Neither Forum City, nor The World, offer any illusion that they are portraying reality.

4. TNM is about a moderator who disappears under mysterious circumstances. The plot elements in .hack//SIGN stem from an AI which went rogue and usurped the game's creator, among other things. In The Matrix, a small group rises up to fight the system. There is an element of this in TNM, and for all I know you may even end up joining them, but from the start, on this point, TNM is closer to .hack than The Matrix.

5. In TNM, the moderation staff appear as soldiers. Actually, they're automatons called Firewalls. In .hack//SIGN, the moderators appear as knights. In The Matrix, the agents occupy bodies as they see fit, more like ghosts. And though they change shape, they look like secret agents, not soldiers.

6. TNM and .hack both deal with existing online communities. Both have newbies, moderators, and administrators. While you could say children are newbies in The Matrix, it's a huge stretch. The Agents are like moderators, but let's not kid ourselves, it's hardly the same thing.

So I'm wondering... Is anybody who worked on TNM a fan of .hack? If so, awesome; if not, it's a heck of a coincidence. First aired in 2001 or 2002, .hack precedes the major social networks like MySpace and Facebook, as well as popular MMORPGs like World of Warcraft. Not all of them, as it's based on the genre, but the popular one people think of now. Also will I find any .hack stuff laying around? I see plenty of CDs, DVDs, and games laying around that I can only guess are developer favorites.

[Kee715]

Wait, similarities between TNM and ****ing ANIME!!! AN OUTRAGE I SAY!!!

Seriously, Anime sucks! (In my opinion)

At least TNM is not anime themed

[Magnas]

Wait, similarities between TNM and ****ing ANIME!!! AN OUTRAGE I SAY!!!

Seriously, Anime sucks! (In my opinion)

At least TNM is not anime themed

As much as I dislike most anime and tend to gravitate more towards conventional western-themed comics and such, I have to disagree with your grouping of everything together. Anime is an Eastern artform- it's no better or worse than anything else solely for being what it is.

On a more serious note, I think the point being made was merely that Forum City and TNM as a whole are a digital construct of a digital location. Sort of an alternative representation of the forum.

But I do agree that it is more of a parallel to .hack/SIGN. It's awesome to see people putting as much thought into this setting as they did to DX.

[JC_Helios]

I'm sure it's mostly coincidence. I mean TNM started out as being like a joke to make one map with a bunch of video game Forumites in it. Of course it's going to bare some resemblance to an online game world theme.

[ZeroPresence]

Those are some striking similarities, though. I guess that could be said about most games/movies and such though.

[Dark Reality]

Wait, similarities between TNM and ****ing ANIME!!! AN OUTRAGE I SAY!!!

Seriously, Anime sucks! (In my opinion)

At least TNM is not anime themed

Well, I don't disagree with your opinion, though I wouldn't state it so rudely. There's a fourth thing I could say I don't care for about anime, but it doesn't apply to all of them and it's kind of a low blow.

As I said though, it's not a traditional anime for three reasons given and a fourth left unsaid. (OK, to put it nicely, the children portrayed are just that, little kids, they don't have... more... adult... attributes.) It's really just a story and it happens to be a Japanese-produced animation. For me, someone who doesn't care for anime, it transcends genre and form and I like it despite disliking other products which are similar.

Those are some striking similarities, though. I guess that could be said about most games/movies and such though.

Except .hack//SIGN was pretty unique in its approach until TNM came along. There are movies based on or involving virtual reality, for example to be specific, we could go back to 1994 with "Brainscan" (with Edward Furlong), possibly even further to Tron, but then we're grasping.

Either way, no disrespect is intended; quite the opposite, TNM's similarities to .hack//SIGN are one of the most compelling features. There's a .hack game for the PS2, but they divided it into four installments, each one taking only six hours, tops, to complete. It's a good approach, the design of it, but the dividing it up is completely unnecessary for the game and was only done to sell more copies, so that's pretty lousy. Anyway, the limitations of the PS2 games left me wanting more, and I think TNM will answer that calling somehow.

[Jonas]

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I'd never even heard of .hack//SIGN until... I saw this exact post of yours over on GameFAQs yesterday

In fact I looked it up, and its run started 4 months after work on TNM had begun (of course that still left plenty of time for the series to inspire TNM had I know about it, but unfortunately I did not). But it sounds quite compelling, I'll see if I can obtain a copy and check it out.

As for anime, personally I will happily forgive that entire genre for all its Pokemon, Dragon Ball, and Yu-Ki-Oh drivel because it has given us Akira, Evangelion, and of course Ghost in the Shell

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

I think TNM is for lack of a better comparison SnowCrash the game, just because of how it feels similar- Trestkon reminds me a lot of Hero Protagonist- minus the Asian Black thing but also how the Matrix appears in SnowCrash, its more similar to a predecessor to most MMORPGs such as Second Life, TNM plays very very much like Snowcrash. (MelkTM being SnowCrash )

Am I right Jonas..?

[Jonas]

...I've never read Snow Crash. But everybody keeps bringing it up in relation to TNM, so I guess I'm gonna have to get it.

I've seen The Matrix, Tron, and Reboot, so I guess those could be brought up as actual influences on TNM. Mostly though, TNM is just an interesting, odd-ball analogy taken to its extreme. We didn't really need any inspiration to come up with the setting, we just had an idea and decided to run with it. But of course you never work in a void, there will always be indirect or subconscious influences.

If anything, real inspirations for TNM include mostly games: Deus Ex (duh), Hitman, System Shock, Torment, and a bit of Half-Life.

[Jetsetlemming]

Wait, similarities between TNM and ****ing ANIME!!! AN OUTRAGE I SAY!!!

Seriously, Anime sucks! (In my opinion)

At least TNM is not anime themed

If you prefer, you can think of it as similarities between TNM and a PS2 JRPG series. There's I think three games in the .hack series.

I've seen a couple of episodes of .hack//sign on Cartoon Network and while it seemed interesting they were always on at like 5 AM with no context so I didn't really have an opportunity to follow the series.

[Kee715]

Wait, similarities between TNM and ****ing ANIME!!! AN OUTRAGE I SAY!!!

Seriously, Anime sucks! (In my opinion)

At least TNM is not anime themed

If you prefer, you can think of it as similarities between TNM and a PS2 JRPG series.

>.>

I hate most RPGs, Deus Ex is one of the exceptions. I like how Deus Ex plays and feels, and the story is great, no Dungeons & Dragons, no Disney characters, no mystical Fireswords...

Oh wait...

Well Fireswords are cool

[Jcelios]

I've heard Evangelion is non-sensical pretentious drivel. Confirm/deny?

As for Reboot I can confirm it's genius. I have all the seasons and movies.
Basically any CGI work Mainframe Entertainment did during that era turned into gold.

[Jonas]

I've heard Evangelion is non-sensical pretentious drivel. Confirm/deny?

Confirm.

But it's also awesome.

[Jetsetlemming]

I didn't like Evanglion at all. If you want epic robot fights there are a number of series better at that and Shinji just annoyed the shit out of me. He's worse than a JRPG character because all his lines are actually voiced and played out and I don't get "kill some slimes" breaks in between angst.
FLCL is so much better of a show from the same creators, I don't even understand how the same people (Gianax) made both. Shit, this same group also made the Princess Maker games, making the fluke awesomeness of FLCL even more weird.

[Dark Reality]

Thanks for the reply(ies), I guess it's just a heck of a coincidence.

Yeah, I posted it on GameFAQs but figured I'd ask over here as well since the GameFAQs topic wasn't really getting noticed.

Akira was good, haven't seen Ghost in the Shell, and started watching Evangelion but it didn't stick with me. (Also tried Cowboy Bebop, that and Evangelion on recommendations at the time, after .hack.)

Never read Snow Crash, but I've been tempted to.

If you prefer, you can think of it as similarities between TNM and a PS2 JRPG series. There's I think three games in the .hack series.

I've seen a couple of episodes of .hack//sign on Cartoon Network and while it seemed interesting they were always on at like 5 AM with no context so I didn't really have an opportunity to follow the series.

Four, though, don't ask me to prove it. I can only ever name two or three, but there are four. Each one comes with a DVD with a 20-45 minute (depending on which one you get) video which contains back story to the anime.

And as for watching stray episodes, it's really a serial, you gotta watch 'em in order. I hated Star Trek: Deep Space Nine when it first ran, but years later hearing it was the best one, I started with Season One and watched it from the start, and I was almost immediately hooked. Now I've seen it all the way through twice and it's my favorite Trek (though Babylon 5 surpassed it, and then Battlestar Galactica surpassed both of them). .hack//SIGN's the same way, though it has a lot of filler. They could have taken it down to a 2-3 hour movie and it would have been awesome. But if you can put up with it, it's worth looking at. I like to think about it now and then, compare it with recent advances in online society, kinda let my mind wander and trip on it for a bit.