Combat Forced?

[Hassat Hunter]

Then again so do you if you play PDX, so I have no idea what Jonas aims at with "if you're playing WorldCorp."

[ZeroPresence]

Are the reaction times modified at all as well? It seems like NPCs pull alarms if they catch a glimpse of one of your pixel's around a corner in a dark shadow for a microsecond, lol. And yes I've started doing that Jonas: isolating them and taking them out with a prod, this is fun too, adds another element of having to hide your evidence! (the gardener at PDX is gonna have a huge surprise when he trims the trees in the outside portion of the first floor)

[AgentSmithereens]

I vaguely recall some changes to enemy AI so if you make the slightest noise, even if they can't see you, they'll still hit the alarm.

To be honest this is something I didn't really like in DX - how can an enemy tell from a few footsteps (a) who you are, and (b) where exactly you are?

[chris the cynic]

When I am the evil overlord my guards will be instructed to treat every instance of unidentified footsteps as evidence of a breach (if inside) or imminent breach (if outside.) The alarm will be immediately sounded and then a response will be coordinated. If it turns out to be nothing they can all have a nice laugh about it later (when off duty.)

They're not getting paid to stand around or patrol, they're getting paid to respond to possible threats. (Standing around, patrolling, and monitoring video feeds from cameras are simply a means to that end.) As such, responding to the footsteps before they know from whence they came is just them doing their jobs.

How they locate you is something that I can't really answer.

-

The phrase "from whence" has been used since the 14th century. Yes, it is redundant, but it also happens to sound better than "whence" alone.

[Jaedar]

When I am the evil overlord my guards will be instructed to treat every instance of unidentified footsteps as evidence of a breach (if inside) or imminent breach (if outside.) The alarm will be immediately sounded and then a response will be coordinated. If it turns out to be nothing they can all have a nice laugh about it later (when off duty.)

You expect every guard to memorize EVERY patrol route that gets within hearing distance of his own, and WHEN he will hear it?
Also, consider that the different patrol routes take different amounts of time, so every time the guard walked, he'd have to adjust when he would hear his comrades. I don't think people that smart want to work as security guards for an insane evil overlord.

[AgentSmithereens]

You use the phrase "unidentified footsteps", but what exactly does that mean? Surely any footsteps you hear are unidentified if you can't actually see the person. In that case how can you differentiate from the intruder or just a random guard on patrol / going for a stroll?

I don't know, it just seems to me to be a complete waste of time and resources to get the whole unit from 1 side of the complex to another, just because 1 guard heard another. Meanwhile the intrude (if there even is an intruder), could use this diversion to do any number of troublesome things.

[ZeroPresence]

probably something along the line of "who's there?" "oh sorry, its me Smithy... what's cracka lackin' homie?" if no response, then I'd trip the alarm and go running to my evil overlord.

[chris the cynic]

You expect every guard to memorize EVERY patrol route that gets within hearing distance of his own, and WHEN he will hear it?

You use the phrase "unidentified footsteps", but what exactly does that mean? Surely any footsteps you hear are unidentified if you can't actually see the person. In that case how can you differentiate from the intruder or just a random guard on patrol / going for a stroll?

For some reason, I know not what, you two seem to be assuming that a guard cannot simply call out and get a response. Ok. Let us go with that. Assume that for some reason my guards are incapable of mouth to ear communication. In that case, this is my response:

Well first off, why in fuck would I let guards go out on random strolls? If someone is on a break they should be in a designated break area, if they are not on duty they should stay the fuck away.

When isn't actually that important. (Unless patrol routes are timed to last the same amount of time for each guard in which case your concerns about when would disappear as they would always be at the same where in the route.) Where is what matters. If the guard can locate areas where they would hear footsteps because of nearby allies (as they could with regular patrol routes) then footsteps anywhere else can be safely ruled the result of one of two things:
1 Someone who isn't supposed to be on site at all, or
2 A guard somewhere he or she is not authorized to be.

Both of these situations represent a very real threat and should be taken seriously immediately.

(Also, remember, the footstep hearing we're talking about in Deus Ex is not "faint footsteps in the distance as carried by the wind." But a much more immediate thing.)

And, of course, none of this makes any difference for random patrol routes, but if we were going to be realistic the guard would have a radio and could call in, "I'm hearing footsteps at X, is there anyone near me." And if the response was no then every guard would know there was an intruder within earshot of X. Not as efficient as simply calling out and asking , "Who's there," but it would work.

I don't know, it just seems to me to be a complete waste of time and resources to get the whole unit from 1 side of the complex to another, just because 1 guard heard another.

I said nothing in support of how the Deus Ex AI handles a threat once identified. Even if you know someone actually is a threat it is moronic to send all of the guards after that threat.

For obvious reasons:

Meanwhile the intrude (if there even is an intruder), could use this diversion to do any number of troublesome things.

[bobby 55]

probably something along the line of "who's there?" "oh sorry, its me Smithy... what's cracka lackin' homie?" if no response, then I'd trip the alarm and go running to my evil overlord.

Hahahah! If that's not you Smithy then whoever you are i'm gonna put a cap in your ass.lol.
Thief3 meets Boyz In The 'Hood

[AgentSmithereens]

I'm not sure what you're talking about chris, but it doesn't seem to be related to what I was talking about, i.e. how DX AI handles reacting to intruders. You seem to be talking about a hypothetical situation in real life, which is a bit different.

[chris the cynic]

I'm not sure what you're talking about chris, but it doesn't seem to be related to what I was talking about, i.e. how DX AI handles reacting to intruders. You seem to be talking about a hypothetical situation in real life, which is a bit different.

Let me explain.

You were talking about, I thought, how your enemies in Deus Ex and TNM (many of whom are guarding something, it must be stressed) respond to hearing your footsteps.

To be honest this is something I didn't really like in DX - how can an enemy tell from a few footsteps (a) who you are

Which, to be honest, they don't always. What they do is to respond to you as though you were a threat to be taken seriously.

I came out in support of that, guards should be wary of mysterious footsteps.

When I am the evil overlord my guards will be instructed to treat every instance of unidentified footsteps as evidence of a breach (if inside) or imminent breach (if outside.)

You then brought up the following concern:

how can you differentiate from the intruder or just a random guard on patrol / going for a stroll?

I don't know, it just seems to me to be a complete waste of time and resources to get the whole unit from 1 side of the complex to another, just because 1 guard heard another.

This concern is not a Deus Ex concern. Never in Deus Ex or TNM will all of the guards run to the other end of the facility because two of them heard each other and sounded the alarm. The concern you brought up is a concern regarding a hypothetical situation in real life.

I responded to that by expanding upon the Deus Ex system I had endorsed by treating it as a hypothetical situation in real life as that seemed to be what you wanted to talk about. After all, if we were just talking about how the Deus Ex AI handled reacting to intruders there would be no reason for you to bring up two guards hearing each other or Jaedar to bring up the need to memorize patrol routes.

-

Or at least that is what I thought happened, but now you are telling me that when you said, "it just seems to me to be a complete waste of time and resources to get the whole unit from 1 side of the complex to another, just because 1 guard heard another," you were actually were talking about how the Deus Ex AI handles reacting to intruders. Consider me confused. When does that happen in Deus Ex?

So, in my confusion, I wrote this post.

Which is what brought us to where we are now.

[Jonas]

I'm not entirely sure what's up with the alertness of TNM AI. Mostly because I don't remember exactly how alert the DX AI was. We did specifically mess with the alarm settings of the AI to make enemies hit the alarm if they see fire or spot a disabled bot etc., so it's possible that something along the way was broken to make the AI more easily trip the alarm.

We also have some issues with the wrong AI barks playing sometimes, that's very probably a result of our dabblings too - when you work with something you don't fully understand, you are likely to break it. When enemies hear you, they're supposed to stop and shout something like "Hey! Who's there!?" and if they hear or see nothing else from you after a few seconds, they will say "Must've been a rat" or similar and go back to their patrols. I take it that's not what you're experiencing?

If they've been fighting you and you vanish, they should generally trigger the alarm.

Some of them are set up to trigger the alarm if they acquire a target, meaning if they spot you for long enough to visually confirm that you are an enemy. They do this before attacking you. Others won't hit the alarm before you injure them enough to make them run away, in which case they will trigger the alarm before running away. Some never activate the alarm.

A good trick is to plant a LAM or a gas grenade below the alarm unit, because then they will activate it when they go to hit the alarm. But I digress.

Bottom line: It's possible we accidentally made the AI a lot more sensitive than it originally was.

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

I don't think Deus Ex has enough non-combat gameplay so I agree with ZP, Combat is too essential to the gameplay in both TNM and Deus Ex for there to be a non-combat only option..

Also I don't consider stealth to be a non-combat option. Non-Combat should be really about being able to talk or hack you way through the game without ever having to pick up a weapon- its all about Bluffs and supporting other characters who may already be in combat roles- I noticed that Deus Ex 3 is trying this on but I don't think they'll get it anywhere near as say Fallout 1 where you could literally play the game without ever picking up a gun.

The problem with Deus Ex's game design is that its not a standard RPG- its a Hybrid, so the assumption is that there's only ever going to be one class to choose from- which will be a combat only role.

This just happens to be the failure of the action genre, its only good at one thing and one thing only.. Combat. If the game were more a traditionalist RPG then it'd work non-combat and allow you to literally role play in the Deus Ex world.. Unfortunately that doesn't happen- but there's plenty of characters in the game that never have combat roles, such as Alex, Everette and Jamie.

I just wish a real team-based Deus Ex did happen.. something like Jagged Alliance 2 for example.

[ZeroPresence]

That's a brilliant idea Jonas. I for some reason always forget that grenades can be placed as traps in single player. But in multiplayer I've been known to place gigantic gas grenade traps in a certain area of a map. Where you try to run away and just trigger like seven more. lol

And yes I've noticed that barks bug while in PDX as well. But, I will say in defense that it may be a blessing in disguise because think about it realistically... if I saw a sewer hatch open and a guy in a orange suit peeking up at me for a second then quickly disappear I'd probably raise a few alarms myself. lol In vanilla DeusEx if this situation happened with an MJ12 trooper he would probably say "what was that? A guy in a coat..." stand there for about five seconds then say "it was nothing." then of course get a prod to the neck...

[Jonas]

Dude, Deus Ex (and TNM!) is already trying to be 10 different things simultaneously, if it had to support a completely dialogue-based playthrough as well, it would probably collapse in on itself and end up a quivering mess of suck.

It's about being a super-agent uncovering a global conspiracy, it's not about smooth-talking your way into top secret military installations. We'll leave that kind of gameplay to proper adventure games.