Combat Forced?

[ZeroPresence]

I usually play a stealthy character in Deus Ex/TNM and enjoy it a lot that way. I can concentrate more heavily on upgrading the really useful skills like lockpicking, electronics and computers. I then equip a few basic weapons such as a prod, baton, pistol, stealth pistol (or the service pistol) and a combat shotgun then go to work. I've played through most of the TNM levels (still haven't completed it fully, seems kinda odd for one of the developers...) and I really get the vibe that my colleague that populated the maps really forces combat down your throat. If you think about enemy placement in Deus Ex you see a few well placed gaps in patrols, security and not too many guards set to "wandering" or "standing" since those are the most infuriating to deal with if you're trying to keep the alarm pulls to a minimum. I suppose that through the use of our excellent difficulty modifying system I could reduce the population of foes to a minimum but that's no fun... then it just gets too easy. I generally use the "hard" or "realistic" equivalent in TNM and I guess those settings for population are plentiful and crowded? Meh.

What is everyone else's opinion on the added weight for stealth players in TNM? Depending on your preferred difficulty I suppose.

[Duke Floss]

I use the custom difficulty and you can choose the amount of population you want. Although I do agree it is a great deal more difficult to do stealth in TNM as opposed to DX - I think because there are a lot of areas where there are less spots/shadows to hide in and more light areas. However I found in DX I only used stealth knockouts on the NSF and Unatco enemies - everybody else was fair game.
In TNM I rarely use stealth kills - unless it benefits me. I think because of the setting - I don't feel as bad about bootkicking someone off the server.

In both games I mostly use - baton, prod, stealth pistol, assault rifle, and the various grenades.

[bobby 55]

IMO Deus Ex is good for stealth as Deadeye mentioned there are plenty of shadows.With TNM i have the AI set to normal.So unless i have the cloak aug maxed out i hardly use stealth in it, at least the earlier sections.It's a bit more difficult in TNM to be stealthy most of the time, but with the gag weapons, i swap challenge for humor and leave stealth out of it.I have recently played 2 runs on punishing and being stealthy on that setting,for me at least,is practically impossible

[Jonas]

I really get the vibe that my colleague that populated the maps really forces combat down your throat.

Sure, blame it all on me...

Seriously though, it should be perfectly possible to play TNM stealthily, but I doubt it's possible to ghost it on the highest enemy quantity setting. And I'm okay with that, the whole point of the enemy quantity setting is not just to make combat harder (health changes do that just fine) but also to make stealth harder. In a game where stealth is as important as it is in Deus Ex, it just doesn't cut it for the difficulty system to have no influence on patrol routes and guard posts. Thief nailed that, but I guess they didn't have time to repeat the trick in DX. We did

Furthermore:

I generally use the "hard" or "realistic" equivalent in TNM and I guess those settings for population are plentiful and crowded? Meh.

This is not correct; if you play on "Painful" in TNM (Hard), the NPC quantity will be "Normal", and if you play on "Punishing" (Realistic), it will be "Crowded" (the Hard equivalent). It's never set to "Horde" unless you do it yourself.

The main advice I can give you is: instead of trying to avoid the guards, isolate them and take them out with the prod or the PHAT-Rifle's rice bag launcher. Or some pepper spray or fire extinguisher to the face and a good whack over the head. And at some point of course you will acquire the cloak aug, and it'll all be a walk in the park from there.

[Jaedar]

Don't you get the cloak aug a lot earlier in TNM than in DX as well?
I never really had problems stealthing in TNM, but that could be because I only stealth until I can make a silent takedown.

[Jonas]

Yes, the Cloak aug is available almost immediately: you can hack the container in Jonas's lab (or use the code if you remember it from a previous playthrough) or you can grab it from DP on level 3 of WorldCorp. In other words you can pretty much get it as soon as you've completed the Downtown mission, so you can even have it for the second storyline mission in the game (dealing with Silver Dragon).

[Made in China]

I agree with Jonas. In Deus Ex, stealth paid out more than just rushing into combat, so you really only favor one approach - while in TNM, each path you take has its own pros and con - so while combat is challenging, sneaking is challenging as well. You really couldn't ask for more, unless you want to feel like you've "used an inventive approach" - and while Deus Ex manages to pull that off, it gets old after a while as EVERYONE knows about those ways.

With that being said, Deus Ex presented itself as 'every approach is possible' game, so you could complete the game with no items, without being seen, etc. - so TNM being un-ghostable without augs is kind of against expectations, but strangely more realistic. I mean, you're infiltrating high security compounds with guard patrols, security cameras and robots, what did you really expect?

[Jonas]

I don't think DX was deliberately designed to be completable without ever using inventory items for example, nor was it designed to be ghostable, I think its being that was a result of very good design, a nice amount of luck, and some pretty insane persistence on account of the players who decided to complete the game using only small crates (looking at you, Alginon). It may still be possible to ghost TNM even on the highest difficulty setting, as it may be possible to complete it without using (non-plot-critical, there is the Spyware Device and the Firestaff) inventory items. I just don't guarantee it, because we never managed to test for it. It'll almost certainly be really really hard, but ghosting Deus Ex wasn't exactly cakewalk either.

[AgentSmithereens]

Yes, the Cloak aug is available almost immediately: you can hack the container in Jonas's lab (or use the code if you remember it from a previous playthrough) or you can grab it from DP on level 3 of WorldCorp. In other words you can pretty much get it as soon as you've completed the Downtown mission, so you can even have it for the second storyline mission in the game (dealing with Silver Dragon).

That's odd, I've never been able to get the cloak aug that early with PDX. The first aug in Jonas' container has always been ballistic protection, and I only got the cloak until after DXI.

[Jonas]

There will be two different augs in Jonas's container before DXI depending on what point in the mission order you check. It should start out as the cloak aug and then be replaced by the speed enhancement / run silent aug after the spyware mission. I think the cloak aug is deleted if you don't manage to grab it before you do the spyware mission.

[Hassat Hunter]

Let's loot the Wiki (SPOILER WARNING!)!

EMP Shield/Ballistic protection
* In the PDX HQ, you get it from Jonas as a reward for saving Silver Dragon, or during the WC storyline you can steal this one when you enter there.
* In the WC HQ on the fourth floor. You get it from Scara B. King as a reward for killing Silver Dragon.

Cloak / Radar Transparency
* In the WC HQ Nanotech labs on the third floor, you get one from DP because he thinks you're someone else.
* In Despot's Apartment, you can find one in a box hidden in a small room below Despot
* In the PDX HQ, you can get one from Jonas as a reward for handling DXO. Or you could acquire it yourself before you've done that. Jonas won't be happy, though.
* In the Air-Traffic Control Tower level there is one in a hidden safe in a shop outside the ATC perimeter.
* Pimp-Jojo gives you either this one or #7 or #9 as a reward for bugging the servers in the DXI ruins.

Speed Enhancement / Run Silent
* In the PDX HQ, you get this one from Jonas after you've planted spyware in the WC HQ server room.
* When you've acquired the DXO newsscript, Scara gives you this one as a reward.

Looks like AgentSmithereens is right. However, a Narcissus run is always possible too to have it before SilverDragon .

[Jonas]

Oh man I even checked the wiki before posting. I must've read it wrong. I fail at TNM trivia

Still though, you can get it early from DP in either storyline. It'll just cost some multitools if you're playing for WorldCorp.

[Jaedar]

Still though, you can get it early from DP in either storyline. It'll just cost some multitools if you're playing for WorldCorp.

What now? you don't need no 'tools to see a WC scientist as a WC player do you? Or am I thinking of the wrong person?

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, you can only buy "permission" after killing SD. So if you want it before doing the SD quest, yes, you need multitools.

[Jaedar]

Well, you can only buy "permission" after killing SD. So if you want it before doing the SD quest, yes, you need multitools.

Ah, now I see.