Combat Forced?

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Jonas
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Re: Combat Forced?

Post by Jonas »

Right, well you're right by-and-large, but I will say that there are different kinds of scope for choice, and you don't have to let the player pick "any role ever" to be an RPG, otherwise I guess Nethack is the only real RPG we have (What the fuck? I can't be a defenseless tourist in Oblivion? That sucks, what kind of RPG is this!?). Deus Ex manages plenty of choice even when it limits that choice to "what kind of augmented super-spy do you want to be?"

The main problem I think we can all agree is when games pretend that you have a non-lethal option by giving you one or more speech skills and then you invest all your skillpoints in that and you're annihilated by the first fucking mandatory combat encounter. But an RPG that gives you a more limited range of character options but then delivers on all of them? I think that's great design.
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Re: Combat Forced?

Post by Odysseus »

Jonas wrote:The main problem I think we can all agree is when games pretend that you have a non-lethal option by giving you one or more speech skills and then you invest all your skillpoints in that and you're annihilated by the first fucking mandatory combat encounter. But an RPG that gives you a more limited range of character options but then delivers on all of them? I think that's great design.
Agreed completely. Deus Ex (and TNM) are one of the few games that avert the Useless Non-Combat Abilities trope.
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Re: Combat Forced?

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

The main problem I think we can all agree is when games pretend that you have a non-lethal option by giving you one or more speech skills and then you invest all your skillpoints in that and you're annihilated by the first fucking mandatory combat encounter.
*cough* Fallout 3.. I remember when Emile (of Ion Storm fame) got pissed with Todd Howard when he said Fallout 3 was purely a combat oriented game.. Emile said "hey why can't they do another option" and then Todd basically is all like Shut the fuck up and read from the damn script we gave you! not in those words but it sounded like that. After that everyone started calling them out on the fact that Fallout 3 was purely combat focused- unlike the previous games in the series (except Tactics- which isn't really an RPG).

After that Emile started spewing out the same crap Todd Howard was spewing out about how awesome blowing up peoples heads was- I think a part of him died that day- though I've said Emile is the only reason that game came out remotely playable.. since it was Todd's ideas that failed the worst.. (he can be blamed for the ending :D "its edgy, its cool, no one's done that before... But then we realized it was a huge mistake after fans starting saying "why can't I keep playing"" - Todd Howard, though I think its more insulting to play an entire game just to have a massive GAME OVER screen shoved in your face as your reward.. and then discover you have to pay $10 in order to have it fixed. Scam much?)
What the fuck? I can't be a defenseless tourist in Oblivion? That sucks, what kind of RPG is this!?
Well everyone else in the game can be.. why can't I.. I saw a mud crab the other day.. I also heard that the X NPC has the best wares in all of cyrodil... Oh I also saw a mud crab the other day, disgusting creatures.
But an RPG that gives you a more limited range of character options but then delivers on all of them? I think that's great design.
That's EXACTLY what I was thinking, Its not like you can facilitate EVERY role imaginable, you're just facilitating the ones that you can, then after that you can expand on those ideas once they've been proven successful and people begin demanding more roles from you. A Role Playing game that actually lets the player pick what they want to do from a vast list of unique and interesting perspectives- rather than again the communist idea that everyone is the uber awesome hero that saves the world.
NICE article, sums it up quite a lot really. But I feel that Deus Ex's failing comes down to redundancy-- once you get Augmenations the Skill system becomes utterly redundant.. you don't EVER have to level up anything because Mods and Augs can do most of the work for you. Ideally if they wanted to do that they should have rewarded the player more for using Skills over Augs- that way the redundancy factor is eliminated- Augs should be powerful but there should be a drawback from them (such as they could get less effective when Bio Electricity is low).

Also the reason why Swimming is useless is because its a skill used to "Avoid" combat entirely- so you rarely ever use it- plus most of the places where you do use it are hidden.
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Re: Combat Forced?

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Mr_Cyberpunk wrote:A Role Playing game that actually lets the player pick what they want to do from a vast list of unique and interesting perspectives- rather than again the communist idea that everyone is the uber awesome hero that saves the world.
...is exactly the sort of game I was speaking out against. Please stop trying to sound like you agree with me when you obviously don't.

"Yes I think it's a great idea to limit yourself so you can eventually stop limiting yourself and try to do everything at once anyway!"

I mean... what? :-s

And will you (pardon the anger) shut up with that use of the term communist please? You sound like a brainwashed 15-year-old neo-conservative American. Films aren't communist because they don't let you pick between two different endings, are they? Calling a game like Half-Life communist just because it doesn't try to be anything other than an action game is just auto-parody.
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Re: Combat Forced?

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

I was saying focusing on selective roles and then expanding them as the game grew in success- I wasn't saying commit game design suicide and do everything with everyone all at once- I was trying to say that you've only got maybe 4-8 different roles to choose from at that time, Essential roles "at release".. crucial to the gameplay and to the overall function of the game world.. As the game grows in success and popularity you then expand it to secondary and tertiary roles. First do a good job at the important roles that deliver on diverse gameplay.. and then focus on expanding it to keep everyone interested.

Roles would refer to what the player is doing to interact with NPCs- such as command, trade ect. All centralized on its own gameplay types- or ways of playing.

That's all I was trying to say.. no need to bite my fricken head off. I'm guessing what you're referring to is essentially 1 role that is modular in form (ie. I'm a super agent that can do X and X abilities) - and that can work to facilitate a non-linear game- but it wouldn't exactly be the same as what traditional PnP RPGs were trying to achieve where by multiple roles are possible to be chosen from at the start of the game and the player can facilitate a specific role in the world to either help or hinder the other players.

Really I feel it just comes down to functionality of the player and what they're doing to play the game- the role they choose determines how ideally they're going to want to play.

A very good example of what I'm talking about is Mount and Blade- though its heavily combat forced. That said there's a non-combat gameplay option- should you roll strong Trade skill, you'll play as a trader.. should you roll strong archery, then you'll play an archer, should you be good at healing then you'll play a doctor. I feel that's where my thinking is coming from.
shut up with that use of the term communist please?
I was referring to Communist in that everything is done for you.. all you do is play. I don't know if there's a proper game design term for it- I guess it'd be over-simplification. My point was RPGs are supposed to be indepth and contain lots of options for character development, unlike the games I mentioned where its centered around a one track idea that everyone wants to play the game the same way as everyone else. I don't think RPGs are about being forced into combat roles.

I'm sorry that my terminology is probably completely messed up, its been a rough week.
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Re: Combat Forced?

Post by Hassat Hunter »

Made in China wrote:Alright, point taken. I'm just not in the adventure games' 'scene' anymore - but I should point out that most of the point and click games I saw as great were also very humorous, and about half of the games you gave don't seem high on humor (again, may be wrong, need to buy them), which is the thing that spiced up the whole genre.

And on another note - Sam & Max is back? I thought LucasArts nuked it long ago, when they favored milking the Star Wars franchise instead. I wonder if I can find it in a local store...
I guess so. All the ones I mentioned, aside from Syberia are "humerous". Wheter or not they succeeded as much as LA (IMO: No) is up to personal preference. And even Syberia isn't completely dry either, fortunately.

Yeah, Telltale Games bought the right to make new games of them some years ago. Already 2 seasons have been released. And ofcourse as mentioned they now make Monkey Island games too! It won't be long before Manny Callevera and the Maniac Mansion/Day of the Tentacle crew will return ;) (one can hope)
Perhaps what I'm trying to say is perhaps games should be focusing less on the power of being able to kill people and rather relying on the power of being able to solve problems without violence.
[/quote]
You realise there also many games that suffer from combat being poor, distracting from the overall experience? Citybuilders are a good example, but also games like Planescape: Torment. However I am someone confused why you think ACTION games should have non-combat options. What part of ACTION says "enormous conversations with NPC's... and no combat!" ???
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Re: Combat Forced?

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Mr_Cyberpunk wrote:That's all I was trying to say.. no need to bite my fricken head off.
It's not my fault that your head is so delicious.
A very good example of what I'm talking about is Mount and Blade- though its heavily combat forced. That said there's a non-combat gameplay option- should you roll strong Trade skill, you'll play as a trader.. should you roll strong archery, then you'll play an archer, should you be good at healing then you'll play a doctor. I feel that's where my thinking is coming from.
Ah I see. Yeah that sounds sensible enough.
I was referring to Communist in that everything is done for you.. all you do is play. I don't know if there's a proper game design term for it- I guess it'd be over-simplification.
Well in any case "Communist" is a terrible analogy for it. It'd be slightly less grossly inaccurate to say that RPGs with loads of choice are communist because "all roles are equal" and you have to work your ass off to find the fun (seeing how one of the core tenets of communism is "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs", in other words you'll have to work for it).

Under "applied socialism", the only way you'll get everything done for you is if you're Stalin.
My point was RPGs are supposed to be indepth and contain lots of options for character development, unlike the games I mentioned where its centered around a one track idea that everyone wants to play the game the same way as everyone else. I don't think RPGs are about being forced into combat roles.
I think we're back to the discussion of "what is an RPG anyway"? It's a question I've found pretty impossible to answer. Do you have to be able to invent your own role for it to be a role-playing game, or is it still an RPG if you're given a role by the game or game master and told to play that? I've encountered many RPGs or RPG scenarios where you didn't get to decide your own role, but it was up to you how to play the role you were given within the confines of that role (such as: nano-augmented secret agent).
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Re: Combat Forced?

Post by Jaedar »

RPG game: A game with meaningful choice(usually in the form of stats/skills), that is my definition anyway :P. The more meaningful the more RPG it is.
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Re: Combat Forced?

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Jaedar wrote:RPG game: A game with meaningful choice(usually in the form of stats/skills), that is my definition anyway :P. The more meaningful the more RPG it is.
Close enough to mine - after a very long and very annoying discussion with a fellow game design geek, we eventually arrived at the conclusion that the only useful definition of the RPG genre was: a game where you can customise the player character. If much interaction in your game is built around this costumisation, you are making an RPG. Games in other genres with some character customisation can be said to have RPG elements.
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Re: Combat Forced?

Post by Jaedar »

Jonas wrote:a game where you can customise the player character. If much interaction in your game is built around this costumisation, you are making an RPG. Games in other genres with some character customisation can be said to have RPG elements.
I think you should replace player character with something else... since say, black and white could be seen to have RPG elements, but not all centred around customizing you (your village and creature for example are not you :P).
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Re: Combat Forced?

Post by Hassat Hunter »

Then you might aswell say a RTS is a RPG because you "customise your base".
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Re: Combat Forced?

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Hassat Hunter wrote:Then you might aswell say a RTS is a RPG because you "customise your base".
Exactly, and don't forget that Sim City is an RPG because you can customise your city, and Civilisation is an RPG because you can customise your nation, and tons of racing games are RPGs because you can customise your cars.
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Re: Combat Forced?

Post by Jaedar »

Jonas wrote:
Hassat Hunter wrote:Then you might aswell say a RTS is a RPG because you "customise your base".
Exactly, and don't forget that Sim City is an RPG because you can customise your city, and Civilisation is an RPG because you can customise your nation, and tons of racing games are RPGs because you can customise your cars.
Which is why my definition is better than yours, since it deals with customization beyond character :)
(Before a certain amount of meaningfulness has been reached it is merely a game with RPG elements)
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Re: Combat Forced?

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Meaningful choice should be a core element of any game, not just the RPG genre. It's certainly a core element of any proper strategy game, a genre which has meaningful choices in abundance - one choice might see your nation dominate the world or collapse in on itself, if that's not meaningful, I don't know what is.

The choice of whether to use one kind of weapon or another in an FPS can be a choice of life or death. The choice of whether to use a flash bang before entering a dangerous room in SWAT4 though you're not sure it has any hostile is of utmost critical importance.

Yet none of these games are RPGs.
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Re: Combat Forced?

Post by Hassat Hunter »

Yeah, it would be "interesting" to see how a RTS would work where you could crawl your way out of all combat...
(Yes, a RTS... not a citybuilder!)

And by interesting I mean utterly crap and boring... just mentioning it since sarcasm has a hard time on these boards as of late.
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