RPS Graces TNM With Lovely Words

[bobby 55]

Watched that movie at university recently (though not in class) apparently it's being remade. Release date in 2010, Liam Neeson to play Zeus.

I hope it's better the second time around.

[chris the cynic]

It had a flying horse and a clockwork owl, what more can you ask for?

[bobby 55]

It had a flying horse and a clockwork owl, what more can you ask for?

ROFL, you've got me there.

Edit: With all the nice things people are saying about yesterdays article, and the interview with Jonas, it will be interesting to see the number of TNM downloads in the upcoming weeks.

[justanotherfan]

This Quintin Smith phrased things very well. There's some great lines there. He's a good writer and an interesting reviewer.

-references in Forum City often seem written for someone other than you
-you are instead piecing together the truth yourself
-as a game it feels like you’re being treated like an adult.
-weakens itself in simultaneously trying to appease the community it came from while trying to tell a plain conspiracy story

Those references bothered me for some time, that I wasn't quite "getting it" when it came to the story and community. That's bad. The game was good, so I kept playing, and after the initial alienation it did let me piece those answers together as the intended detective, to do a little exploring, and even read some old PDX content outside the game. By the time I saw myself in Partyzone I already felt like I was in the original community.

Being treated as an adult is awesome. There are many levels to that, including the complexities of concepts and topics broached, but the most obvious one is the swearing. I mentioned in my review about the Deus Ex gosh darned murders trying to borrow the world by being jerks. Deus Ex barely touched religion, let alone deeply satirizing it.

TNM could have been a lot more complex. NPCs could have passed out mid-conversation, having been killed in the "real world" a la The Matrix. A wizened old guru character could have had to brb because his mum was calling for him to pick up all the dog poop from the backyard. Yeah yeah metaphors extended thoroughly embracing the potential of originating conceptual whatever, I'm happier with a game that told me a conspiracy story in the style of Deus Ex, "appeasing" a fan like me. If it was to "appease" fans, I'm sorry it was so important to me, but I figured OTP wanted to make a DeusExy game. It worked.

Those were interesting and partly true points that I wanted to reply to. I'm not sure what "The world, inexpertly presented at times" is about though. I wouldn't know how to inexpertly present a world, let alone expertly present one. Forum City seemed presented well as as online world.

[Made in China]

justanotherfan, I couldn't agree more. TNM really is a great game, and if it weren't for the dated graphics, it could have probably been compared to current games. The world just sucks you in, and the whole forum backstory doesn't really stand out as something abnormal. In fact, I think that a Matrix-esque take on this would detract greatly from it, as it would both make the world more empty, and would constantly remind you that your actions are almost meaningless - I mean, you're fighting for the control of a forum. In TNM you really care for the characters, even with the sometimes goofy surroundings, internet culture and cheesy villains and masterminds, and you think of PlanetDeusEx as a real city with major consequences and deaths rather than just a GameSpy forum.

[chris the cynic]

I really think it is better to think of it as being more like Tron or Reboot than thinking of it as Matrix like.

Don't get me wrong, a Matrix like forum city would make a great setting, but for completely different reasons that I don't think really do or should apply to TNM.

[bobby 55]

I really think it is better to think of it as being more like Tron or Reboot than thinking of it as Matrix like.

Don't get me wrong, a Matrix like forum city would make a great setting, but for completely different reasons that I don't think really do or should apply to TNM.

That's not bad Chris, Tron didn't go overboard with the AI premise and although I liked The Matrix, I think I had more empathy for the characters in Tron.

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, no offense, but while it doesn't resemble The Matrix storyline it certainly matches the 'world'.

A world where virtual representations of people do their thing, like it's (DX) life. Of course the differences are they are aware of this, instead of being mindless drones of the robots.

[chris the cynic]

The problem with it being like The Matrix is that in that case when the avatar does something it means that the user is doing something. Think about what that means for someone like my character.

The Fan Fic Shop is open twenty four hours a day. It appears for all the world to have two employees, those being the owners. Even if they were never at work at the same time that would require each of them working 12 hours. But they are at work at the same time. So we're talking about being online, with online meaning plugged in and thus out of contact with the real world, more than half of every single day. So what does my character do? 8 hours sleep (is that still average?) and more than 12 hours jacked in leaves less than four hours doing anything in the real world.

That's not a lot of time in the real world. It doesn't make a lot of sense unless we're thinking of this as much more than a forum equivalent.

If it were like The Matrix then having something in Forum City would be a lot like having it in real life (you could feel it, smell it, taste it, see it, hear it just as you would a real life object) so someone who was going to be jacked in wouldn't need to buy real stuff (other than food, housing and an internet connection.) So necessary real world income would be reduced. That said, we're still only talking about less than four hours a day in the real world. And time spent jacked in is being spent working. Why do it?

Now if there were an exchange rate for credits to actual money then perhaps a successful enough Forum City business could actually provide the income necessary to survive in the real world. In that case long hours working counter in Forum City would make sense. In that case it would mean that for some people we're not talking about a forum, we're talking about a home and a livelihood. An account being terminated could actually mean someone is unable to pay their rent, or buy food. Serious business indeed.

This line of thinking can, I believe, result in an internally consistent world in which interesting stories could be told*, but I really don't think that the Forum City of TNM was ever intended to be such a world. I think it was intended to be a somewhat fanciful analogy to a forum. Just like Tron had programs running around doing things inside a computer TNM has avatars running around doing things inside a forum.

The Tron-Reboot view also leads to an important disconnection between user and avatar. If TNM is taking place in a sort of Tronish metaverse of platonic ideals and avatars with personalities of their own then the death of an avatar means something. If it is just the users themselves in the virtual world then what's to stop the dead person from making a new account, saying, "Hi, I'm me, I've just sent you an email confirming this," and carrying on like nothing ever happened? For death of characters to be meaningful the characters themselves, the avatars, must contain some personality of their own. Or not**. But pretend I haven't contradicted this paragraph both two paragraphs before it and in a footnote.

Anyway, I don't have to convince you. You can believe whatever works for you. I'm just saying that from my view Tron and Reboot make better ways to view things than The Matrix.

-

* Episode one would be the main cast banding together after a major east coast blackout in the US and parts of Canada left a significant portion of users offline, notably including the vast majority of the police force in the local area. Once people realized the police had disappeared into thin air looting would begin, while at least one user who didn't consider Forum City anything more than an online game went on a thrill kill rampage.

Yes, I have thought about what an actual Matrix-like forum city would entail.

**
Person 1: She doesn't have a job irl. This is her job, this is her life.
Person 2: She could make a new account.
Person 1: Yes, she could, and I'm sure she will. But that means starting from scratch.
Person 2: Well she cou-
Person 1: What? Say, "Hi, I'm the real Mylie," along with seventeen other people? No. She knows how it works. Your account's terminated and that's it. You start over. You don't get back what you lost. She has to earn as much as she can as fast as she can and hope it's enough to pay next month's rent.

I've thought about it a lot actually, but not enough to write out decent dialogue.

[Hassat Hunter]

Why do it?

Because you like it... and you're crazy?

See this "Jonas" guy. He's ALWAYS online, yet still manages to work on a game inbetween aswell. I don't think he sleeps, so that saves him 8 hours.

Also, we only ever see Forum City during 2 specific timelines. Who says Chris and Walton do not go offline during time X (their evening in their timezone?) and leave it for others to handle.
I am not sure where you live, but it could be possible midnight in Forum City (The USA?) is midday for you, so that's why you are there when Trestkon is active at that time as well. We know Evil Invasion/That Guy get "rest" when you leave for DXI, to go AFK?

Oh well, maybe I thought too much into this aswell .

[chris the cynic]

Why do it?

Because you like it... and you're crazy?

Well of course.

See this "Jonas" guy. He's ALWAYS online, yet still manages to work on a game inbetween aswell. I don't think he sleeps, so that saves him 8 hours.

Online, but not jacked in Matrix style. Right now I'm on a computer responding to you, having OiNutter tell me that everything I know about EGS is wrong, watching CNN, and have multiple tabs and applications open. I can multitask. If I were in a Matrix like simulation that would be all that I saw, heard, smelled, touched and tasted. That would be the whole world for me.

Now maybe in the simulation I could get on a simulated laptop and do all that I am currently doing, which would make being that the counter of the shop less tedious and whatnot*.

What people couldn't do is jack in from work or university. You can't have The Matrix open in a tab. Well, maybe you can but it needs to be pointed out that anyone not in that tab would just be completely still oblivious to the entire world of Forum City, and anyone in that tab would be oblivious to the rest of the world.

The Matrix is more involved than browsing a forum, and it is (in my mind) unrealistic to think that someone could be on a The Matrix Forum City as often as they could be on an internet forum without serious changes in the nature of their situation.

Also, we only ever see Forum City during 2 specific timelines. Who says Chris and Walton do not go offline during time X (their evening in their timezone?) and leave it for others to handle.

Well I can't say that, you are correct. It could be that my character is co-owner of a business with many employees.

I am not sure where you live, but it could be possible midnight in Forum City (The USA?) is midday for you, so that's why you are there when Trestkon is active at that time as well.

If Forum City is like PDX was at the time then it is in US Pacific time. I'd be in US Eastern Time, so three hours difference. That would likely be over thinking things though.

We know Evil Invasion/That Guy get "rest" when you leave for DXI, to go AFK?{/quote}
Yes, they did. But when Trestkon regains consciousness Evil Invasion has been staring at his feed for ten hours. That's a lot of time to be jacked into a simulation.

Oh well, maybe I thought too much into this aswell .

Nothing wrong with that. I overthink things recreationally.

*But unless my job (assuming I have one) can be done from a simulation of a laptop I can't get work done. Nor can I go to school

[Hassat Hunter]

Online, but not jacked in Matrix style. Right now I'm on a computer responding to you, having OiNutter tell me that everything I know about EGS is wrong, watching CNN, and have multiple tabs and applications open. I can multitask. If I were in a Matrix like simulation that would be all that I saw, heard, smelled, touched and tasted. That would be the whole world for me.

Easy. "Trestkon" is a user in Forum City. It makes sense for the other users to have their world be the same way. Can *you* multitask while still playing DX or TNM?
But yes, that does exclude being able to do school or work and similar.
They could use ingame IRC to contact each other similar to our MSN. But we're going way too far here again .

The Matrix is more involved than browsing a forum, and it is (in my mind) unrealistic to think that someone could be on a The Matrix Forum City as often as they could be on an internet forum without serious changes in the nature of their situation.

Well, think of it like any MMORPG. Like World of Warcraft. The only change is it's GOOD. Now what could that do for addictive effects?

Yes, they did. But when Trestkon regains consciousness Evil Invasion has been staring at his feed for ten hours. That's a lot of time to be jacked into a simulation.

Unless it wasn't 10 hours being multi-conscious, but just tabbing in and out of the application that makes Forum City? Like occassionally checking a MSN convo to say what is being said.
While there isn't anything said for 10 hours...

[chris the cynic]

Online, but not jacked in Matrix style. Right now I'm on a computer responding to you, having OiNutter tell me that everything I know about EGS is wrong, watching CNN, and have multiple tabs and applications open. I can multitask. If I were in a Matrix like simulation that would be all that I saw, heard, smelled, touched and tasted. That would be the whole world for me.

Easy. "Trestkon" is a user in Forum City. It makes sense for the other users to have their world be the same way. Can *you* multitask while still playing DX or TNM?

No, which is sort of the point. If I'm spending ten hours, twelve hours, or more in Forum City then Forum City is my life. That would require a connection to Forum City much deeper than people have to forums. It would also bring up the question of where my food lodging and internet connection is coming from.

But yes, that does exclude being able to do school or work and similar.

And to me that is probably the most important reason not to think of it as being like the Matrix.

The Matrix is more involved than browsing a forum, and it is (in my mind) unrealistic to think that someone could be on a The Matrix Forum City as often as they could be on an internet forum without serious changes in the nature of their situation.

Well, think of it like any MMORPG. Like World of Warcraft. The only change is it's GOOD. Now what could that do for addictive effects?

I've never played World of Warcraft, but I've been in the same room as people who were and I assure you that they were fully aware of what was going on in the room. That wouldn't be true of a Matrix-like WoW. A Matrix-like WoW would take up all of your attention for the simple reason that it is Matrix-like. That would mean that you could only use it when you were willing to turn off the world, thus less often than WoW as evidenced by the people who use it when not willing to do so.

Yes, they did. But when Trestkon regains consciousness Evil Invasion has been staring at his feed for ten hours. That's a lot of time to be jacked into a simulation.

Unless it wasn't 10 hours being multi-conscious, but just tabbing in and out of the application that makes Forum City? Like occassionally checking a MSN convo to say what is being said.
While there isn't anything said for 10 hours...

Direct quote: I've been sitting here staring at your feed for about 10 hours!

[OiNutter]

Hey, uh, guys...? I hate to ruin a perfectly good... whatever this is... but why does Forum City have to fit a previously created fictional setting? I'm not sure I get it.

[chris the cynic]

It doesn't. And it really shouldn't.

The reasons I don't think it is well described as being like the Matrix are set out in varying levels of detail above. This has nothing to do with The Matrix's setting, it has to do with Matrix-like as being shorthand for total immersion five sense virtual reality.

I don't think Forum City as presented in TNM fits with that kind of virtual reality interface for the reasons I described. In fact, I think that if we are going to pick a pop culture cyberspace with which to describe it there are options available that would be closer to what we see in the game than the example of The Matrix.

One of the reasons for this, that I haven't gone into much detail for, is that there seems to be a disconnect between the avatar and the user, though that could just be an example of good and very insistent roleplaying.