Just a couple of things.

[~Psychotic~]

A very good point, however, if in the real world, anyone could walk into a department store, and steal food knowing that no one would ever ever find out and there would be no reprocussions at all, trust me we'd have a lot more shoplifters in this world.

May I note that if you're a good thief you WOULDN'T get caught in the first place. How do you know there aren't "more" shoplifters? Or more thief's of any kind? Just because the media didn't catch on to it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. And, any good thief wouldn't WANT to get caught therefore by not getting caught and by not attracting any sort of media attention to themselves they've accomplished that.

I'm willing to bet there has been millions of thefts unaccounted for, not because no one knew about it but because no one even saw someone take the item they stole.

There is a repercussion to everything, that repercussion can be good, bad or both. You shall only reap bad repercussions of stealing if you're actually caught. This applies to any law. If you're not caught you can't go to jail (in theory, but the justice system is pretty fucked up so I wouldn't bet on it, you could probably go to jail for looking at someone the wrong way).

[Jonas]

Andreus is actually set up to hate hacking, so in theory he will attack you if he spots you multitooling one of the weapon cases. No idea if he actually does - hell, I'm not even sure he can see you over the counter

[Dave]

I totally get all your points, and its not exactly a complaint that im making here. Thing is, moral suspension doesn't really come into a game like this, it's not moral to kill someone, ever. Nor is it moral to knock someone out, so to claim that although you don't get caught multitooling the credit readers, it is still morally wrong is also irrelevant in this situation IMO because the entire game is based upon a lowered sense of morality anyway.

So in such situations, these games rely on a punishment/reward system to push players towards moral or immoral decisions, my point here is that there is no immoral punishment for hacking the credit reader, so everyone might as well do it. You can't compare the moral self implications of real life to those in a game.

[Trestkon]

I totally get all your points, and its not exactly a complaint that im making here. Thing is, moral suspension doesn't really come into a game like this, it's not moral to kill someone, ever. Nor is it moral to knock someone out, so to claim that although you don't get caught multitooling the credit readers, it is still morally wrong is also irrelevant in this situation IMO because the entire game is based upon a lowered sense of morality anyway.

So in such situations, these games rely on a punishment/reward system to push players towards moral or immoral decisions, my point here is that there is no immoral punishment for hacking the credit reader, so everyone might as well do it. You can't compare the moral self implications of real life to those in a game.

Except, the whole point of games like TNM and is that you *have* a choice. You don't have to kill anyone, you don't have to steal. Consider Bioshock; you could kill the Little Sisters, or not. However, the quantity of ADAM the player ended up getting was basically the same either way, it was just a moral choice.

[Dave]

Exactly, in bioshock you end up getting the same amount of adam what ever you do. In TNM, you get more credits if you steal the plasma rifle.

[Trestkon]

Exactly, in bioshock you end up getting the same amount of adam what ever you do. In TNM, you get more credits if you steal the plasma rifle.

Huh, it's clearly too early in the morning if I accidently start debating for the other side :p

I have more points...but I'll wait 'till my brain is fully functional before posting them.

[Jonas]

No, you get more Adam in BioShock if you kill the little sisters, just not as much more as it should've been.

But you know, you might as well be criticising the fact that there's nonlethal weaponry in Deus Ex / TNM when you're not rewarded for being nonlethal (in TNM at least - the rewards you get from Phasmatis roughly balance out the rewards you get from Kashue). That's not the point: it's your choice. If you don't care that you're breaking the law or killing people because the game isn't real life, then that's your choice - that's the character you've chosen to play.

[Dave]

Hmm, interesting debate anyway, i've had fun

I can't really argue with what you say, i do believe that in such games a punishment/rewards system always works best, and i also believe that you've used a very efficient punish/reward system for almost all of the game. Honestly this game is gold, the fact that Deus Ex is one of my, if not my favourite game, and your mod for it at least meets the deus ex standard, and in some cases exceeds the standard is frankly incredible.

[Rex]

And if someone would see and atack you when hacking plasma rifle case, you would just say: ah, it's just one person, i knock him out and no more punish!

btw: non-lethal weapons are great! Especialy rice launcher(btw why phat rifle throws empty bullets when shoting phat rays?)
btw2: More money you will have, when you find plasma rifle instead of buying it or multi tools to get to it.


Edyt(™): Andreus (or how its spelled) see you if you too close when stealing, fight is kind.. troubeling, he shot napalm at me so i run for fire etinguisher, meanwhile andreus set himself on fire and run to the shooting range, then just come back again friendly to me!lol!
btw: 4 x multi tools is 1000 not 1600, they are 250 each? So it's cheaper (at trained electronic) to buy 2 multitools for 500, only ps20, kinfe or paper spray are cheaper then 2 multitools. And if you have advanced electronics.. only ps20 is cheaper then 1 multitool.

[DDL]

Of course my question would be ....why the hell are you using the plasma rifle at all? But then that's just me.

Geppy I can understand, but you can get those from dead dudes fairly quickly.

[Dave]

Aww dude, plasma rifle on master heavy skill, plus master fists and stun gloves = pwnage.

That's another thing btw, when i first got the stun gloves i had master fists by that point, and i installed them and everything, but they just flat out didn't work, they wouldn't stun anyone. Then i found the lethal gloves in Goat city pdx. and as soon as i installed them as well as the stun gloves suddenly the stun effect started working, glitch?

[Hassat Hunter]

Probably selected the wrong gloves more likely. I don't really use gloves, but picking up the lethal might have pushed your slot "back" 1 tier lower (which would be... Stun gloves!) is another possible possibility.

@ Rex: Yeah. It depends on your day though. Day 1 = 250, day 2 = 400. They are 350 or 300 or so in ABI.

@ Jonas; DX did "punish" you for violent play, as Sam holds back some itemry if you got to violent in one mission. Also; no Aug Upgrade/500XP for you if you failed to save Tiffany with sneaking (okay, you could kill everyone afterwards, but still)... But that's about all I can think of.
Also; Phasmatis reward is usually far better than KK's (and with Scara this is even more so the case)... so violence does give you more in TNM. With the exception for the n00bz mission, that is...

[Jonas]

DX did "punish" you for violent play, as Sam holds back some itemry if you got to violent in one mission.

Yeah, but I see that as balance for the fact that the sneaky approach is considerably harder since you don't get Navarre's help.

Also; no Aug Upgrade/500XP for you if you failed to save Tiffany with sneaking (okay, you could kill everyone afterwards, but still)... But that's about all I can think of.

I don't remember exactly how that mission works, but you don't really get that reward for solving the mission in a particular way, you get it for solving the mission - and it just so happens to require you to play in a particular way.

Also; Phasmatis reward is usually far better than KK's (and with Scara this is even more so the case)... so violence does give you more in TNM. With the exception for the n00bz mission, that is...

Yeah we probably got the balance on that a little wrong, but I have no problem with that - in addition to the money KK gives you, you also get to feel like a goodie-two-shoes. Don't underestimate the value of a clean conscience

[Hassat Hunter]

Clean what? Con-science? Whut? I have no idea what you're talking about there...

I don't remember exactly how that mission works, but you don't really get that reward for solving the mission in a particular way, you get it for solving the mission - and it just so happens to require you to play in a particular way.

What's the difference? It's the same with DXE (except the XP can be get violently, just not the credits instead of both being tied like in DX), and I can hardly call that a mission where you can go all out rambo.

[DDL]

Exactly, it IS the same as DXE: the mission is to "achieve X", with X in both cases pretty much excluding "going in guns blazing". It isn't a case of "get a better reward if non-violent" or vice versa, as a violent approach ISN'T an option under the mission constraints. In all other circumstances you have a choice.