Re: Opinions WC Trestkon's convo with Phas?
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:16 pm
Holey(TM) crap, this topic got away from me quick. I'm about to go to bed, so forgive me if I don't tackle each individual point.
First: Jonas. You and the entire TNM have succeeded in making a successful game. I don't know who said it, but I read once that if a book, movie, or game provokes philosophical discussion, it's a success. Because otherwise, people don't care enough to project their world views to one another in the context of the medium in question. TNM has accomplished that.
Second: Cynic. At first I thought you were reading far too much into it and accusing me of being a bad person in real life. A later post of yours clarified that you were talking about the player character. Or at least I hope so. You don't throw around accusations of torturing small animals or children lightly. You just don't. But in the context of fiction, I will accept that the Trestkon I'm playing as is evil. Just yesterday, as I crossed through Downtown towards Goat City, I pulled out the double .45s and shot an NPC as I walked by. It was fun. I regularly play kill-everybody games in DX; I've been holding back more than I should in TNM, especially for doing the WC path. I'm going to have to be more conservative when I play the PDX path.
Third: DX vs. TNM: Wrong, to say that DX and TNM are the same level of fantasy. DX is a fictional story in the form of a game. TNM is a fictional story about real people who are fans of DX and have built an online world around it. It's one step removed, one way or the other; it really could go either way. On one hand, we can suspend disbelief and fully immerse ourselves in the world. DX becomes real and we, the player, become JC Denton. Accepting that, TNM is more unrealistic because it's people who are fans of what we've just accepted as the real world. But that's backwards; DX is clearly fantasy, and TNM represents us - well, not every one of us, but a few of us (the rest of us are there in spirit, I guess) as fans of DX who have our own story, making it closer to reality. Now technically they're both just games, but one's got to be more fantasy than the other; one's got to be a step closer to reality than the other.
Fourth: Reincarnation, forums, real life. Where I'm at, TNM's story is full of holes. It doesn't all add up. I don't really expect it to; it's already accomplished what it's promised. Something need not wrap itself up nicely to work. Look at the movie Donnie Darko. Most people don't get it and hate it. (This was before it was "cool" to hate it.) It leaves a few unanswered questions. That's fine. I mean, first they say it's like a forum but virtual, but if that's true, why are people always online? And the point about SymGeosis or whatever being driven mad by Scara. Would that really happen, in the context TNM presents Forum City? Then again, I met my wife online. (On a music forum actually, not a dating site, FYI.) I've been involved in altercations online that have affected me IRL, but I had to open myself to that to maintain a LDR online and make it work. Now that it's worked and we're coming up on 3 years, I've kind of closed myself off a bit: online drama doesn't bother me as much as it did 2-4 years ago, but I can see how online actions can affect the real world.
(The above paragraph is in no way a solicitation for info, please don't tell me the ending of the game or try to explain said plot holes to me if they're revealed later; I'd like to come to that on my own with no context to view it through.)
Fifth: A last note on good vs. evil in TNM. Nothing I've done has really bothered me on a moral level. Again, I consider myself a good person IRL, but that doesn't mean I shed a tear when I shoot an innocent person in the head in DX, TNM, or GTA games. There's only one game I've played where an evil action really bothered me. The first Fable, on the Xbox, if you take the evil path in the first village, you come to a kid being bullied. To take the good response, you chase off the bullies. To take the evil response, you join the bullies. I can't remember what all's said, but it's kind of cruel, and I remember thinking that was a little too evil. That scene made me really think twice about being a bad guy in the game. Not only has TNM not approached that level, the way they explain Forum City pretty much prevents them from invoking that kind of reaction.
Wow. Longer reply than I hoped for. I think I covered everything, though.
First: Jonas. You and the entire TNM have succeeded in making a successful game. I don't know who said it, but I read once that if a book, movie, or game provokes philosophical discussion, it's a success. Because otherwise, people don't care enough to project their world views to one another in the context of the medium in question. TNM has accomplished that.
Second: Cynic. At first I thought you were reading far too much into it and accusing me of being a bad person in real life. A later post of yours clarified that you were talking about the player character. Or at least I hope so. You don't throw around accusations of torturing small animals or children lightly. You just don't. But in the context of fiction, I will accept that the Trestkon I'm playing as is evil. Just yesterday, as I crossed through Downtown towards Goat City, I pulled out the double .45s and shot an NPC as I walked by. It was fun. I regularly play kill-everybody games in DX; I've been holding back more than I should in TNM, especially for doing the WC path. I'm going to have to be more conservative when I play the PDX path.
Third: DX vs. TNM: Wrong, to say that DX and TNM are the same level of fantasy. DX is a fictional story in the form of a game. TNM is a fictional story about real people who are fans of DX and have built an online world around it. It's one step removed, one way or the other; it really could go either way. On one hand, we can suspend disbelief and fully immerse ourselves in the world. DX becomes real and we, the player, become JC Denton. Accepting that, TNM is more unrealistic because it's people who are fans of what we've just accepted as the real world. But that's backwards; DX is clearly fantasy, and TNM represents us - well, not every one of us, but a few of us (the rest of us are there in spirit, I guess) as fans of DX who have our own story, making it closer to reality. Now technically they're both just games, but one's got to be more fantasy than the other; one's got to be a step closer to reality than the other.
Fourth: Reincarnation, forums, real life. Where I'm at, TNM's story is full of holes. It doesn't all add up. I don't really expect it to; it's already accomplished what it's promised. Something need not wrap itself up nicely to work. Look at the movie Donnie Darko. Most people don't get it and hate it. (This was before it was "cool" to hate it.) It leaves a few unanswered questions. That's fine. I mean, first they say it's like a forum but virtual, but if that's true, why are people always online? And the point about SymGeosis or whatever being driven mad by Scara. Would that really happen, in the context TNM presents Forum City? Then again, I met my wife online. (On a music forum actually, not a dating site, FYI.) I've been involved in altercations online that have affected me IRL, but I had to open myself to that to maintain a LDR online and make it work. Now that it's worked and we're coming up on 3 years, I've kind of closed myself off a bit: online drama doesn't bother me as much as it did 2-4 years ago, but I can see how online actions can affect the real world.
(The above paragraph is in no way a solicitation for info, please don't tell me the ending of the game or try to explain said plot holes to me if they're revealed later; I'd like to come to that on my own with no context to view it through.)
Fifth: A last note on good vs. evil in TNM. Nothing I've done has really bothered me on a moral level. Again, I consider myself a good person IRL, but that doesn't mean I shed a tear when I shoot an innocent person in the head in DX, TNM, or GTA games. There's only one game I've played where an evil action really bothered me. The first Fable, on the Xbox, if you take the evil path in the first village, you come to a kid being bullied. To take the good response, you chase off the bullies. To take the evil response, you join the bullies. I can't remember what all's said, but it's kind of cruel, and I remember thinking that was a little too evil. That scene made me really think twice about being a bad guy in the game. Not only has TNM not approached that level, the way they explain Forum City pretty much prevents them from invoking that kind of reaction.
Wow. Longer reply than I hoped for. I think I covered everything, though.