Lack of tactical options with the second goat quest

[Kalenden]

Hello, first I want to say that you guys did an excellent mod of this great game. The cheesy storyline at first sounded a bit stupid, but in the end it doesn't bother me that much. Also an awesome teleport (from the voodo shop ) system!


Anyway, I want to complain about the lack of tactical options, when you got to destroy the Llama stones with the goats.

First and formost, there is no secret or hidden way to enter the Llama base. Atleast I didn't find any, and there isn't a single hint for it.
Stealth is almost impossible without augmentations. First you got to deal with Abomination. Sneaking past him is impossible since he stands infront of the damn entrance, and the sideway ( the high ledges beside the hill to Abomination ) are to high to jump, even with Aug lvl 3. I suppose I could get 3 boxes somewhere and scale the ledges that way ( needing a high Strength aug for throwing them high enough I suppose ) but that isn't really worth the effort. Eventually I knocked him unconcious with a rice bag.

So next up, the Llama base itself. Also almost impossible to stealth, a small space with lots of guards.... But the worst thing is, if you want to enter the tunnels, you have to kill/K.O the guard next to it. And next to the guard is a whole army who will react to every little sound! Even rice bagging him is impossible without getting the whole troop upon you. I eventually just Cloaked past him although I don't like to do that.

Once in the tunnels itself it becomes more bearable. The laser defences with the turrets are a bit excessive, requiring multiple LAM's but there are 2 side routes avaible so that's okay.

So my main problem is with the Llama base itself. While it is doable it requires ( in my opinion ) 2 cheesy things: Rice bags and the cloak.
There is only one way into the tunnels that is heavily guarded. There should , atleast in my opinion, be an alternative route. A hidden water way or the sewers or something like that.

But except that, I'm finding the mod highly entertaining and want to thank you once again!

P.S is there a quest after this one? Dark templar hinted at it but didn't give one. Perhaps I need to continue the story missions?

[chris the cynic]

One of the things you have to remember is that the cult missions are entirely optional. I played through a few times more or less ignoring the cults entirely. When you have to do something saying there are not enough options is one thing, but when you choose to do a thing with limited options that is somewhat different. If you don't like your options then you do have the option to simply walk away.

[Jonas]

Though Chris makes a valid point, it's not really good enough. I agree that this mission is lacking in tactical options, and incidentally that's a problem you'll also encounter in the Llama quest line when you're told to infiltrate the Goat Templae, which has a couple of chokepoints that make stealth very difficult.

But unfortunately there is no such thing as a perfect game.

[chris the cynic]

Missed this before, sorry.

P.S is there a quest after this one? Dark templar hinted at it but didn't give one. Perhaps I need to continue the story missions?

I would classify the cult missions as story missions, but if you mean what I think you mean (necessary missions) then yes, there comes a point where you have to start doing some of the things you need to do before you are able to do additional optional things.

-

Jonas, I'm not saying that I think the mission is perfect, but I don't think the lack of options is where the problem lies.

This mission limited options via linearity, a later side mission limits options via objectives: you had to do it without killing anyone. The latter was fine even though it limited options. The difference between the two was that in the second you were well aware of the limitation in advance. I think that is where the problem lies.

If the mission briefing had pointed out that there was only one approach, only one entrance, that entrance happened to be guarded by the greatest enemy warrior, and once inside there was only one entrance to the tunnels which itself was under constant guard then you wouldn't have Kalenden looking for secondary approaches and entrances, the player would know that stealth wasn't an option when choosing whether or not to take the mission, and you'd have an opportunity for a nice mission impossible type briefing.

Also, as I already said, I think even as it stands it is far less problematic than if it had been a necessary mission instead of a side mission.

[Jonas]

I agree.

I also reckon the fact that it's optional is the reason it wasn't fixed in time: We were focusing on making the mandatory missions as good as possible, and not all our testers got around to playing the cult missions because they're optional.

Incidentally I meant to put a hidden tunnel directly from the side of Llama Temple Hill (near the bottom) into the Llama tunnels, but it never panned out.

[Jaedar]

Only a fool will try to hide from the devilish llamas, if you are truly of the goat you must purge the foul ones brover!

It is actually very fun to assault the temples, so much so that for my 3rd playthrough I went hostile with both cults just to kill them all . A flamethrower in llama temple... mm good stuff.

And btw, the goat templae is really hard to cleanse the first day ,as there are like 20 of them listening to OiNutters sermon

[Thehotdogman]

I love cleaning out the goat templea. Ballistic protection x DTS + OiNutter's little mob = a lot of dead goat heretics.

[Kalenden]

I've tried to clear the goat temple a couple of times. Trick is to aggro as many people as you can, get them following you and then throw a LAM, if needed follow up with another one. Without massive use of explosions the fight would be a lot harder.

The Llama tempel in that regard is a lot more easy, only Abomination and possible the 4 turrets pose a challange. Beefman ( I ain't sure if that is the leader of the Llamas but I thought he was...) is a dissapointment, combat wise. Especially after the datacube/message that after you the 4 turrets are destroyed, the agressor would be worthy of being killed by Beefman. Well after a couple of .44's in the face, he was already dead.

[nopushbutton]

Stealth is almost impossible without augmentations. First you got to deal with Abomination. Sneaking past him is impossible since he stands infront of the damn entrance, and the sideway ( the high ledges beside the hill to Abomination ) are to high to jump, even with Aug lvl 3. I suppose I could get 3 boxes somewhere and scale the ledges that way ( needing a high Strength aug for throwing them high enough I suppose ) but that isn't really worth the effort. Eventually I knocked him unconcious with a rice bag.

You can get into the tunnels without killing anyone or alerting Abomination, but it takes some exploiting. You can grenade climb on the side of the terrace, where Abom can't see you.

If you have speed aug, you can just run through the temple, hope you don't get shot in the head (gas grenades are a big help), either grab the key to the tunnels and use it, or use another exploit and pause-pick the tunnel door. It's a bit harder to avoid getting killed without killing/knocking people out in the actual tunnels, though.

[Jane_Denton]

Stealth is almost impossible without augmentations. First you got to deal with Abomination. Sneaking past him is impossible since he stands infront of the damn entrance, and the sideway ( the high ledges beside the hill to Abomination ) are to high to jump, even with Aug lvl 3. I suppose I could get 3 boxes somewhere and scale the ledges that way ( needing a high Strength aug for throwing them high enough I suppose ) but that isn't really worth the effort. Eventually I knocked him unconcious with a rice bag.

You can get into the tunnels without killing anyone or alerting Abomination, but it takes some exploiting. You can grenade climb on the side of the terrace, where Abom can't see you.

If you have speed aug, you can just run through the temple, hope you don't get shot in the head (gas grenades are a big help), either grab the key to the tunnels and use it, or use another exploit and pause-pick the tunnel door. It's a bit harder to avoid getting killed without killing/knocking people out in the actual tunnels, though.

Crouch works great for me, especially when I'm conserving BE. I don't mind that it takes a little longer... I like to try and get in and out of a place without anyone noticing... The odd time I'll have to stun somebody if I don't have a choice but I'll hide the body... and so on... That's when I was in WC and the Goats.... I'll play the opposite way my next play through to see how Abom reacts.... but I will no doubt be using stealth again without as little Augs again... I did however steal from Abom's office without incident... as soon as I picked the door I hugged the wall and disabled his camera. When I tried it the way where I hacked the security terminal he flipped out... probably cause I was on camera.

I think I'm babbling... too much sugar.... Anyway long story short I use crouch a lot...