UED 2 vs. UED 1

[FastGamerr]

Hello! It's FastGamerr here. You might know me from my mods for games that over 10 years old, e.g. TODOA for Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II and more aptly Deus Ex Nihilum (DXN).

And yet in the past few months I've started to doubt if my grand plan of finishing DXN is really worth it after all. And not because of the game's age, but since I feel like the engine is limiting the very little creativity that I have. Mainly it's about not bothering to add in any details because of the fear that a BSP hole will eat all of that work, and fixing one tends to create several new, more annoying, ones.

In other words, is using UED 2 for DX really advantageous in this situation? Does the editor somehow calculate the BSP more properly? Last time I checked UED 2, you couldn't see any actors and had to load the packages separately when you opened the editor, among other things (I'm guessing the latest version of UED 2 in Andrievskaya Veronika's DX editing pack is updated?). But the main question is that would using UED 2 really help me with my eternal BSP problems (I swear, I've probably spent most of the 7 years I've edited DX fixing BSP holes)?

Or does the problem actually lie in my mapping? When I started this new incarnation of the project, I started to edit brushes with the grid snapped to 4 units. No vast improvement, I started to use brushes divisible by 8. Most of my brushes (in the NYC Queens level for instance) are divisible by 16 but that also means more big bulky boxes instead of detailed brushes.

Sadly - and I'll admit it straight away to the entire Internet - the project's not going to be as open-ended as DX or TNM or hell, probably even ZODIAC, because I simply don't want to work on this for the next 5 years. I'm sort of aiming to have most of this thing done by the end of 2012 and if that hasn't worked out, well, who knows what'll happen then. I've also seriously considered moving on to a new engine and remaking this project there, but I really want to edit a new game that is exactly Deus Ex-like and has a large array of resources available so I wouldn't have to resort to begging for models (or maybe I should just learn to model myself >_>).

In any case, finishing this mod is going to require a lot of work from me and eventually from other people since my UnrealScript skills are atrocious. That is, if this place still exists at the time

[TL;DR] Does using UED 2 reduce the amount of BSP errors?

[Jonas]

It does a bit yeah. You're still going to be at risk of BSP holes, but if you avoid intersection and line your brushes up right, and you use semi-solids where applicable, you should be fine. UEd2 also calculates the lighting a little differently, which tends to look better.

[FastGamerr]

Alright, thanks. So I assume the normal way to work on maps with both editors is:

* Making the actual map architecture, placing items/pawns, rebuilding the geometry in UED2
* Calculating the paths in UED 1

(Assuming that the latest version has full actor view)

[Jonas]

I would assume so. There's something about UEd2 and zones too however, you may have to switch for UEd1 for water and such.

[miguel]

I don't think that a diferent map editor will give you better resoults, the UED 2 has more tools to make more complex geometry but i'm not sure if it helps the engine to handle more details, I think i'ts a limitation of the engine. Not really sure.
The idea of making basic geometry and detail it with 3d models doesn't seems to be that bad afther all.





As you can see in those images, there's a very detailed model from RE remake that i found (just experimenting) and a weapon entirely made by me, it look a bit weird because i'm trying to simplify it a bit and deleted some faces because it was originaly made by more than 12,000 polygons' i managed to reduse it to 9,000 and the ligthing looks good though.
I don't know how the game would react with a map filled with lots models like that one, However you should try to be more balanced.
Learning to use a model editor surely is difficult and takes some time, I still haven't figured how to use 3ds max, but dont give up.

About changing to other game and engine. Don't say that, Is there a game with similar gameplay and posibilities as DX the you can modify?

And for the end of the world, Who cares?

[FastGamerr]

"Is there a game with similar gameplay and posibilities as DX the you can modify?"

To best of my knowledge, no, so I'll stick with DX But I've always thought that if I started messing with 3D Studio Max or Maya I might as well edit a newer game.. which would leave me wanting to edit something Deus Exish

At one point I actually tried to make "static meshes" in DX... as in, just making non-moving movers but I stopped after attempting to make a really detailed one that only removed every other mover from the level. If some brushes do cause severe BSP errors I've made them into movers but I'm trying to avoid that practice and kind of trying to make all of those brushes into explodable walls >_>

[DDL]

Generally speaking (as far as I'm aware) the reason UEd2 gives you better results is that it has a more optimised rebuilding algorithm: when you rebuild the level, the game slices the geometry into little renderable chunks, all connected each other in a predetermined hierarchy (the BSP-tree): when it needs to render a scene it uses this tree to work out what it needs to draw and what it doesn't (this is why things like zoning help: if it can establish early that it can't see the zone portal, it knows it doesn't need to render anything associated with that zone..this is also why you can get hall-of-mirrors effects if you have a window into a zoned-off area).

Anyway, the UEd2's rebuilding generally makes a more efficient tree than UEd1's, and the more efficient the tree, the faster the engine can get renderin' yer level, in game.

Usually, anyway.

[Neveos]

yeah Ued2 not only autosaves all the time, which can really save your butt sometimes, but it also has a brush scaling (and rotating) feature which snaps to the grid rather than ignoring it. So this can help you avoid holes. You just need to use Adrianna's latest editor pack. It allows you to look at models etc. The only thing i need Ued1 for is building paths.

[Trasher]

I've used UED2 for 3 years now and when I sometimes switch to UED1, it's like going back from a Mercedes Benz E-series to a Lada Samara. I highly recommend you to use UED2 in all cases. Why? It builds faster, you get more tools, it's more stable, more pleasent to your eyes and the list goes on and on. What's the fuzz about building paths in UED2? It works very well and heck, sometimes does its job better than UED. Although sometimes when you build paths in UED2 it keeps crashing so you have to do it once in UED and then it's all good again. Don't know what's that all about.

I mean there is no good reason not to use UED2. So, go ahead and download Veronika's ultimate Deus Ex mapping package. You wont be disappointed.

Happy mapping in UED2 and let your imagination flow!

btw, looking forward to your mod.

[FastGamerr]

Yeah, I've always wanted to use UED2 but I've always backed off due to the increased inconvenience it has caused. But I think I'll make the switch within a few days. Thanks for the tips!

[FastGamerr]

And yet of course, things won't go as smoothly as they could ><

Trying to open my own project's package 'fgrhk' in the editor, it crashes. Tried putting the package in DX\UED2\UnrealTournament.ini and it says it can't find it (despite fgrhk*.u being in the UED2 directory). DXOgg also doesn't seem to want to work but I guess I can leave that for last or something.

Any clues..?

[chris the cynic]

On a similar note, when I tried to load TNM packages in the Deus Ex Editing Pack version of Unreal Ed 2 things went so wrong that I ended up having to do a clean install of Deus Ex just to get the damned thing to run again.

Anyone have any luck getting UED 2 to work with TNM resources?

[Neveos]

Yeah various packages are not going to work. Specifically DXOgg (I posted a thread about a workaround on this board), and I'm pretty sure key TNM packages aren't going to load. It confuses me a little bit, because I want certain things, like those toilet paper dispensers, and it doesn't seem to load. I did get the coffee using their TNM SDK (much thanks), but I still haven't mustered up enough patience to go through and put together the pieces for what I want, and even then, they may not work appropriately, like my version of the coffee doesn't restore bio energy.

[FastGamerr]

Yeah various packages are not going to work.

Really? Well that just put an awkward stop to all this >.< Even tried DX\UED2\System workarounds but nothing worked. Coises!

[Neveos]

Yeah I mean, you're going to run into compatibility issues with TNM's stuff, because TNM seems heavily modified, and Ued2 doesn't load anything with ?code? in it, if that's the right word. However, stuff like rainmod, precipitation, models, all of those are going to work, and any package you put together, with your custom NPCs are gonna work. TNM's overall packages aren't. But you can, as I said, download the TNM sdk, and build TNM's models into your own package to be loaded. Like you grab the class, the textures, the model, put them in your folder, ucc make, and its there in your package.