Deus Ex: Morpheus Website here

Mr_Cyberpunk · Post by **Mr_Cyberpunk** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:59 pm

Also that Shadowrun isn't even cyberpunk anyway it doesn't follow the aesthetic nor the style that Gibson originally developed. So don't mistake it, its just another Dystopia fantasy game.

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:42 pm

Mr_Cyberpunk wrote:Also that Shadowrun isn't even cyberpunk anyway it doesn't follow the aesthetic nor the style that Gibson originally developed. So don't mistake it, its just another Dystopia fantasy game.

Rather than just another cyberpunk game?

Post by **Jonas** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:11 pm

Mr_Cyberpunk wrote:Also that Shadowrun isn't even cyberpunk anyway it doesn't follow the aesthetic nor the style that Gibson originally developed. So don't mistake it, its just another Dystopia fantasy game.

People like you are the reason cyberpunk is as good as dead.

James T · Post by **James T** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:48 pm

Quite; I adore the Virtual Light trilogy beyond words, but Gibson is not the final arbiter of cyberpunk, and has never claimed to be.

Mr_Cyberpunk · Post by **Mr_Cyberpunk** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:16 pm

People like you are the reason cyberpunk is as good as dead.

I was refering to the NEW shadowrun. The old shadow run is a grey patch.

And why is cyberpunk dead.. All I've ever heard is a bunch of elitist academics say it is (wrote an essay on subcultures that inspired Cyberpunk and this was one of my arguments). I think you'll find that there is a demand - just not a good supply of it.

William Gibson and Bruce Sterling use to be large suppliers. William Gibson went on to write more realistic books set in the modern era, Bruce Sterling became a liberalist, recently he's been seen bitching about Al Gore stealing his ideas on Global Warming. Maybe he should have made a movie lol.

The result is that a lot of people want to enjoy cyberpunk, and do. But the genre hasn't produced anything new for since 2000-2002 when Deus Ex first came out and those awful Matrix sequels. (if you don't count IWar and Shadowrun)(most of the stuff that is being produced is by fans now - Dystopia is a great HL2 mod and we can see why HDTP, DXR and NV are needed for Deus Ex)

So don't tell me i'm the reason why its dead -cause I'm one of the reasons why its still ticking along - as are you(eg. TNM) and everyone else who's been involved with our efforts.

It's about creating new stuff to bring people back to the true genre. Shadowrun doesn't do that given they cut out all the hacking and the matrix and added too much fantasy elements. They also did a poor job at the game just in general.

Post by **Jonas** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:56 pm

Mr_Cyberpunk wrote:And why is cyberpunk dead.. All I've ever heard is a bunch of elitist academics say it is (wrote an essay on subcultures that inspired Cyberpunk and this was one of my arguments). I think you'll find that there is a demand - just not a good supply of it.

When I wrote a major exam paper on Neuromancer a couple of years ago (yeah you're not the only person around here who can write, you know), I read a lot of academic articles claiming cyberpunk as a genre is done for, has largely fanned out and been absorbed by the sci-fi genre in general, and did not manage to stay a clear subgenre because a bunch of Gibson fans wouldn't tolerate deviation from the formula.

The result is that a lot of people want to enjoy cyberpunk, and do. But the genre hasn't produced anything new for since 2000-2002 when Deus Ex first came out and those awful Matrix sequels. (if you don't count IWar and Shadowrun)(most of the stuff that is being produced is by fans now - Dystopia is a great HL2 mod and we can see why HDTP, DXR and NV are needed for Deus Ex)

So... nothing commercial has been made in the cyberpunk genre since 2000, and yet it's not dead? Also, you define Matrix as cyberpunk without even blinking, and yet you need not qualify your exclusion of Shadowrun? Hm.

So don't tell me i'm the reason why its dead -cause I'm one of the reasons why its still ticking along - as are you(eg. TNM) and everyone else who's been involved with our efforts.

I didn't say that. I said people of your mindset, who believe a work must follow a strict ruleset to qualify as cyberpunk, and is thus placing terrible restrictions on authors, forcing the genre to stagnate, is the reason why it's dead. As a commercial, noteable genre. And I think a lot of people who's been involved with our efforts don't give a damn about whether or not cyberpunk is dead or DX is cyberpunk, they just like the game and think our mods are impressive (gasp! People who do not confine themselves deliberately to narrow genre definitions! That sounds familiar... oh right, Deus Ex). Which they are, we should pat each other on the back some more for that

EER · Post by **EER** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:06 pm

Jonas wrote: And I think a lot of people who's been involved with our efforts don't give a damn about whether or not cyberpunk is dead or DX is cyberpunk

qft

Btw, I just read that "Cyberpunk" is available for mobile phones now as well: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=23509

Jetsetlemming · Post by **Jetsetlemming** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:13 pm

Shadowrun is still cyberpunk. Just because it has elves and magic doesn't take away the cyberpunk elements. In order to be considered a part of a genre, you have to have the main elements of that genre, you don't have to be exclusive to it. Otherwise Deus Ex wouldn't classify as anything at all.

Mr_Cyberpunk · Post by **Mr_Cyberpunk** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:35 pm

Also, you define Matrix as cyberpunk without even blinking, and yet you need not qualify your exclusion of Shadowrun? Hm.

The Matrix at least followed the themes that cyberpunk runs on, till the sequels anyway. The new shadowrun doesn't count because it doesn't follow the guidelines - Dystopia(HL2) does though because it has all the hacking and the matrix and everything else we associate with cyberpunk. Shadowrun use to have that, it doesn't anymore - hence it is no longer cyberpunk.

did not manage to stay a clear subgenre because a bunch of Gibson fans wouldn't tolerate deviation from the formula.

You are right about that, I have stated before (maybe not on this forum) that I'm all for improving the genre - some fantasy elements are okay within limits so long as the dark dystopia feel is right and that it is strictly High-tech. However wasn't that the case with HDTP? We couldn't deviate from the originals!

they just like the game and think our mods are impressive

Lets see what people say then. The most common thing I hear about Deus Ex is that it has the best atmosphere - brought on by the music and by the theme. The reason why the love the atmosphere is because it is based on the Gibson cyberpunk aesthetic. It works, it is enjoyable and it is realistic.
For someone who is a Deus Ex purist you certainly are a hypocrite with that in mind.

So... nothing commercial has been made in the cyberpunk genre since 2000, and yet it's not dead?

As I said, the fans took over the creativity. Its because all the stuff that cyberpunk predicted has come true and suddenly it makes more sense to write about post-modernism than cyberpunk. The only other option is Science fiction as you said. That's why a lot of writers have gone down that path cause it makes more sense.

Cyberpunk is merely a set of conditions - this is why it differs from science fiction. And thats why we have them.

It is possible to Hybrid - as we've seen with shadowrun(the old one). Within reason. It needs a good set of balance however for it to be recognizable.

Mr_Cyberpunk · Post by **Mr_Cyberpunk** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:40 pm

Wow.. thats cool a Mobile game based on Cyberpunk 2020

Well there you go. Looks like its not dead after all.

Post by **Jonas** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:45 am

Mr_Cyberpunk wrote:The Matrix at least followed the themes that cyberpunk runs on, till the sequels anyway. The new shadowrun doesn't count because it doesn't follow the guidelines - Dystopia(HL2) does though because it has all the hacking and the matrix and everything else we associate with cyberpunk. Shadowrun use to have that, it doesn't anymore - hence it is no longer cyberpunk.

And yet The Matrix was also very different in style and tone to anything Gibson ever wrote. I'm sure I can find a considerable amount of differences between Gibson's works and The Matrix. In fact you might argue only about half of The Matrix contains cyberpunk elements, the rest takes place in a stylized action representation of the present day.

I haven't played Shadowrun, let's be clear on that, but I've read about it and seen artwork from it, and it sure seems to contain a lot of cyberpunk elements. Including the "attitude", hard to define as such a property is.

However wasn't that the case with HDTP? We couldn't deviate from the originals!

Where exactly are you going with that comparison?

HDTP is a project to make an old game look nicer without making it look different. It is a remake, a replica, an upgrade. As an author of any kind of fiction, I would not like to confine myself to remakes of old stories. Nor would I like it if any kind of entertainment industry consisted entirely of remakes and recreations of old products.

For someone who is a Deus Ex purist you certainly are a hypocrite with that in mind.

Always quick to resort to name-calling, aren't you? Who ever claimed I was a Deus Ex purist? Do you realize how much we've changed and added to Deus Ex in TNM?

It is possible to Hybrid - as we've seen with shadowrun(the old one). Within reason. It needs a good set of balance however for it to be recognizable.

Yeah, well... I'm not sure I see the point anymore. You seem to condemn Shadowrun because it's not cyberpunk, more than because it's not a good game. I may have read you wrong, but if you dislike Shadowrun just because it doesn't adhere strictly to a set of very strict subgenre definitions, then I disagree with your opinion of how one should create fiction.

To sum up my position: I really like cyberpunk. I know you like cyberpunk, and since you argue so staunchly against my opinion that the genre needs to be defined more loosely than many do, I think it's safe to say you like it even more than I do. So we both like it. This is just a matter of how narrowly you define the genre and how you interpret the style of a given game. Since style is kinda vague and hard to define, our discussion becomes steeped in subjectivity.

Nobody's going to win this. Can we just call it a draw and say that to you, Shadowrun is not cyberpunk, but to me it is? Can you live with me disagreeing

And will you stop calling me a hypocrite based on your own vaulting comparisons across media and genres?

Mr_Cyberpunk · Post by **Mr_Cyberpunk** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:11 am

Can you live with me disagreeing

I've done so for the last 1.5 years.. so what the hey.

In fact you might argue only about half of The Matrix contains cyberpunk elements, the rest takes place in a stylized action representation of the present day.

Totally agree with you there.

HDTP is a project to make an old game look nicer without making it look different. It is a remake, a replica, an upgrade. As an author of any kind of fiction, I would not like to confine myself to remakes of old stories. Nor would I like it if any kind of entertainment industry consisted entirely of remakes and recreations of old products.

Die Hard, Rocky, Mad Max... want me to go on? All are having/had lame sequels made after them and I can see the trend continuing.

Perhaps you would like me to call it "Traditional(Gibson) Cyberpunk" and we can refer to Cyberpunk as being open-ended.

fox · Post by **fox** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:28 am

One main criterion whether I consider something to be CP or not is the grade of realism. I wouldn't consider classical fantasy creatures as likely to show up in the near future, so I'd call Shadow Runner a mixture between CP and Fantasy.
Actually I think commercial CP is dead, since the 80's are gone and in fact many visions became true. But who cares? The thing's I loved when reading Neuromancer or Snow Crash aren't dead at all.

I still love the old stuff but also I really want to see some progress, some new visions. SciFi will always be highly influenced by the time it's written in. Don't bother with it, 'cause it's useless. Times are changing... and don't give too much about genre labels.

Jetsetlemming · Post by **Jetsetlemming** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:16 am

In my mind, cyberpunk has always been "sci fi with main themes of alternate lifestyles and subcultures" (when I'm feeling nice), or "Fiction set in the future yet with anachronistic characters from the 80's" (when I'm listening to people like Mr. CP blather on

).
I've never thought of Deus Ex as cyberpunk, honestly. It's got plenty of cyber, but it's punk is only in sideline segments and characters, the city slums and nameless characters thrown in as decoration. Maybe in it's music styles. It's main theme and style is sciency sci-fi adventure. The new shadowrun still has the same punkish character design as the original, and though it doesn't have comples hax0ring gameplay, I wouldn't be surprised if those elements still weren't introduced as part of it's story/plot, or as mission objects capture-the-flag style. You can't deny Shadowrun is cyberpunk because you disagree with the gameplay of it.

Post by **Jonas** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:14 pm

Mr_Cyberpunk wrote:Die Hard, Rocky, Mad Max... want me to go on? All are having/had lame sequels made after them and I can see the trend continuing.

Yeah, and do I like that? No. Not at all.

Although I'd still like a Deus Ex 3, so maybe I am slightly hypocritic

Perhaps you would like me to call it "Traditional(Gibson) Cyberpunk" and we can refer to Cyberpunk as being open-ended.

Yes, I would indeed like that. Saying that Shadowrun is not traditional cyberpunk is fine by me. Saying it is not cyberpunk at all is not. Saying it is somehow worse than Deus Ex in virtue of not being traditional cyberpunk is not okay with me either. Saying it doesn't appeal to you as much because it's not traditional cyberpunk is fine.