Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

[Dragon]

The guys made ENEMY TERRITORY.

Which IMO gives TF a run for it's money. So saying it's just a cheap clone is like saying Deus Ex is just a cheap System Shock II clone. Or something.

ET good? Giving TF a run for it's money?

I don't know which TF you played (the "new-fangled" crap?) but the real TF had fun going on. ET is boring compared to that.

Hey, TF2 is not bad it's one of the better multiplayer shooters in recent times.

Compared with something like PoA it's like Kindergarten stuff. If you want an interesting take on the TF formula take a look at SourceForts. I would recommend PoA (acutally not a TF type game) but due to some "unfortunate" developments in the past you are not going to find any servers anymore (it's still one of the best MP games I know).

[nerdenstein]

I like TF2. Aside from using real money for ingame items, I don't understand why it gets the stick that it does.
Sure, It's coming more difficult to find a bog standard server that isn't full of bots instead of real players and mods that give premium players access to 'Uber' Weapons...
Also, with my bandwidth, finding a server that doesn't suffer alot of lag can be quite annoying sometimes, but that isn't the games/servers fault alot of the time.

[Dragon]

The problem is that TF2 is designed as a "cash-cow" game and not as a "fun" game. It's really not funny if players are "classified" or other annoyances. The only thing TF2 has going for itself is the art style but other than that it has no right to exist to begin with... and especially no right to call itself TeamFortress

[justanotherfan]

I liked Legends, the open source version of tribes. I was never good at Tribes, but it's a major reason I started considering Wintel.

Hadn't seen TTLG in a long time, DaveW. Their DX section is a little quiet, and aside from DX, I had only played through Bioshock and SS2, not especially a fan of either. I was thinking of TNM/HDTP/NV being especially hardcore. Still, to keep the Looking Glass name and logo, that is hardcore.

I was pretty excited about DX3. I wrote a long thing about this, but the gist is that they're adding many of the defining features of modern games I disliked. For example, if anyone completed Manhunt or Punisher and enjoyed the takedowns, they enjoy videogames differently than I do.

Just watched Inspector Gadget, the film. That was intensely annoying, seeing brand names flashing everywhere. Not sure why they thought "****** Airlines Ticketing Office" would sound positive, since I associate tickets with cost.

[VectorM]

The problem is that TF2 is designed as a "cash-cow" game and not as a "fun" game.

A game simply CAN'T be a cash-cow if it's not fun. I don't know why people keep repeating this stupid shit.

And just because it's not fun to you doesn't mean it's not fun for anyone else. I know it's hard for you to handle it, but your preferences are simply not objectively better. Sorry.

The problem is that TF2 is designed as a "cash-cow" game and not as a "fun" game.

I could mention various examples of design decisions made strictly with fun in mind, but you will probably claim it's all just PR or something like that, so why bother.

and especially no right to call itself TeamFortress

Yeah, the PC Gamer Constitution specifically forbids the existence of games like this.

[Jonas]

And just because it's not fun to you doesn't mean it's not fun for anyone else. I know it's hard for you to handle it, but your preferences are simply not objectively better. Sorry.

This is true.

A game simply CAN'T be a cash-cow if it's not fun. I don't know why people keep repeating this stupid shit.

This is not. Have you ever heard of Farmville? People don't really play Farmville because they think it's fun - maybe in the beginning it seems like an amusing pastime, but it very quickly reveals itself to be a hollow chore. They keep playing because of signalling - because it displays their progress and the state of their game to all their friends, and they want to appear to be responsible people who can take care of their property (and, between the lines, their progeny).

That's only part of it of course, but Farmville is almost objectively not fun. And yet it's the definition of a cash cow.

That said, TF2 is definitely designed to be fun. All the microtransaction stuff was added later, mostly as an experiment, and so much content has been added to the game for free, you'll have to be pretty incredibly cynical to claim it's designed to be a cash cow.

[VectorM]

This is not. Have you ever heard of Farmville? People don't really play Farmville because they think it's fun - maybe in the beginning it seems like an amusing pastime, but it very quickly reveals itself to be a hollow chore. They keep playing because of signalling - because it displays their progress and the state of their game to all their friends, and they want to appear to be responsible people who can take care of their property (and, between the lines, their progeny).

Don't have Facebook at all, so I don't even know how that game works. But yeah, that friends stuff sounds like it would make it a lot more like some sort of social responsibility, rather than something you do just to have fun.

I guess I simply didn't account for the pure social aspect a game could have.

[dains]

This is not. Have you ever heard of Farmville? People don't really play Farmville because they think it's fun - maybe in the beginning it seems like an amusing pastime, but it very quickly reveals itself to be a hollow chore. They keep playing because of signalling - because it displays their progress and the state of their game to all their friends, and they want to appear to be responsible people who can take care of their property (and, between the lines, their progeny).

Don't have Facebook at all, so I don't even know how that game works. But yeah, that friends stuff sounds like it would make it a lot more like some sort of social responsibility, rather than something you do just to have fun.

I guess I simply didn't account for the pure social aspect a game could have.

Here's an interesting watch that explains the whole "MUST-PLAY-FARMVILLE" thing quite well.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... kinner-Box

I have a cousin that could not spend less than 2 hours a day on Farmville, then more on that Facebook knight game, Mafia Wars, etc. He got better eventually, but it was pretty revealing, as he doesn't seem to be the addictive personality type at all.

Now ME on the other hand, I stayed the heck away no matter how many invites he sent. Know thyself and all that.

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

That said, TF2 is definitely designed to be fun. All the microtransaction stuff was added later, mostly as an experiment, and so much content has been added to the game for free, you'll have to be pretty incredibly cynical to claim it's designed to be a cash cow.

This is true, but only in the case of valve. Other developers aren't so generous, where by paid content always takes priority over free content. In some cases the developers even have the nerve to charge a subscription on top of an item shop and give very little away for free. I've seen it work, and I've seen it done as unethically and as rotten as possible. With that said though, the value for money of the TF2 item shop I feel is rather minimal- especially when compared to the price, in the end you're still buying a product and in the end that product should do exactly as its worth. $20 on a hat that does nothing more than provide you with buffs is a waste of money, especially when you could buy an Indie game for that price.

Whilst many will claim it is the users choice as to if they buy it or not ie. "Just don't buy it then" excuse, the fact of the matter is that its still a major game design change to have to cater for that, concern is still valid, the concept of "Pay to Win" comes to mind- now whilst it hasn't happened to valve, I've definitely seen it in other games, where by unless you've bought the best of the best (which in many cases costs more than the actual game price) you will be unable to compete against any "End Game" gameplay, specifically PvP orientated gameplay.

The item shop does definitely introduce huge game design hurdles if not done right. What is concerning is that we're seeing this more and more being applied to singleplayer games through the use of DLC, Deus Ex 3 is a big offender of this already with its pre-order bonuses, Just Cause 2 was (but fortunately the guns were dirt cheap, you could buy the whole lot for around $10- which is nothing considering how many guns and vehicles it gives you), I think its going to be interesting to see how they dealt with it, if Deus Ex 3 did it right then the player will basically be able to say "eh fuck it.." and be fine, the DLC when installed shouldn't be overpowered as to create the idea of a "Paid Cheat" with any luck it'll be like Just Cause 2's DLC since it is Square Enix. The good thing about JC2's system was that those DLC items cost a shitload making them really only suitable for mid to late gameplay. Now granted if you access them early it undermines the entire upgrade system.. which is a problem.

[Undisputed]

Quite a point blank, well made comparison Jonas made. The engineering and thought process that goes into making those games (like Farmville) is pure genius, it gives the players a "responsibility" to show up and put massive hours in regardless if they are enjoying themselves or if the game is even fun. After all its like doing dishes everyday, not something you look forward to engaging yourself in but its a responsibility others and yourself depend on you to do. I wish I owned Farmville...

On a sidenote, Enemy Territory is an amazing game. The mechanics and realism almost surpass (if not do) games today, its well balanced not only through teamwork but also objectives and how useful every class can be especially in variety, and its a fast paced game that gives you an adrenaline rush the entire time. On top of all this its a free game, the best things in life are never free but this is the only exception. Were talking about a game where your teammate can dive on a grenade to save his team by minimizing damage or even nullifying it, lets be real now..Like Deus Ex the realism is mindblowing, most people will never find out just how realistic that game is especially that example I just mentioned.

[VectorM]

I've definitely seen it in other games, where by unless you've bought the best of the best (which in many cases costs more than the actual game price) you will be unable to compete against any "End Game" gameplay, specifically PvP orientated gameplay.

And most of those games are free to begin with, right?

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

I've definitely seen it in other games, where by unless you've bought the best of the best (which in many cases costs more than the actual game price) you will be unable to compete against any "End Game" gameplay, specifically PvP orientated gameplay.

And most of those games are free to begin with, right?

No, the ones I refer to are subscription based MMOs, Or are multiplayer specific games that have incorporated some kind of Item Shop. We've seen the impact this has had on single player games as well but its more common in the multiplayer scheme of things due to the social competition.

[Jaedar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcsn6usl ... r_embedded

New trailer.
It mentions Fema. Continuity?

What worries me is the blow-uppable wall shown. I wonder if it is possible to see that it can be demolished even if you play without orange glowies around everything.

[bobby 55]

FEMA, global conspiracies, scientific breakthroughs, all sounds interesting. I'm sold already but I'm getting disillusioned with the practice of producing umpteen teaser trailers before a game is released.

[[FGS]Shadowrunner]

As you might now know, some Romanians and/or some journalists have been very naughty.

The 29.05 preview build of Deus Ex Human Revolution is available on the internet.

It's the first "10" hours of the game, which some journalists took almost twice that to finish.