BioMod - A new gameplay mod building on Shifter

[ggrotz]

I'm sorry I assumed we'd moved on to discuss the general usefulness of various items compared to charged pickups, I didn't realise we were still talking about your self-imposed play style limitations.

No we were talking about the general perceived usefulness (or uselessness) of various items in the game. To that end, I posted a screen shot as an example (along with the post before-hand) that enviro skill items can and do get used, which happened to be from a playthrough with a self-imposed limitation, and was clearly marked as such. The point being that all of the items have use depending on the role play elements selected in the game. And that specific usefulness is more perception than anything that is reality when it comes to the game because people can and do select to play it different ways (if allowed in mods, that's another debate).

But if you want to go there, I find the GEP gun pretty useless in utility, simply because the number of inventory spots it requires is too high, you get crippled in moving with it because it requires heavy skill points to move normally, and there are equal options with more advantages when it comes to explosives like the 20mm and the LAM. But just because I don't like carrying it doesn't mean I shouldn't learn it and see why someone else might like to carry it.

[Jaedar]

Personally I don't think everything has to be equally viable, as long as everything is useful and there are plenty of options.

[ggrotz]

Personally I don't think everything has to be equally viable, as long as everything is useful and there are plenty of options.

Indeed, and that's what I'm getting at. Do I have the option to play the game however I want or am I forced into doing/using certain things at certain points in order to proceed?

[Jonas]

You two just took a heapin' big dump all over the concept of game balance.

It's fine that you can find uses for every item in the game (except cigarettes, presumably), even if it requires you to impose outrageous limitations like "low tech weapons only" on yourself, but don't make the mistake of assuming everybody has the same approach to playing as yourself.

BioShock is a brilliant example of that. The wrench in that game can become so powerful that people find themselves using it all the time even though the standard FPS melee combat featured in BioShock probably makes for the least interesting core game loop outside of Facebook games. In general, players are driven to make the most optimal decisions and play in the most optimal way, because that's what the game implicitly rewards.

How many times have you completed Deus Ex, before you decided to play only using low tech weapons? And how useful did you find charged items on your first playthrough?

[ggrotz]

You two just took a heapin' big dump all over the concept of game balance.

Actually that seems that is what we are promoting.

It's fine that you can find uses for every item in the game (except cigarettes, presumably), even if it requires you to impose outrageous limitations like "low tech weapons only" on yourself

No one says that you have to impose any restrictions on yourself to be able to find use out of these things. But doing it forces you to learn what the uses are, and if you do that you might like them.

but don't make the mistake of assuming everybody has the same approach to playing as yourself.

I believe that's what I've been saying, as I see that in most of what has been posted here. "I don't like / can't use it." usually then brings calls for "that's junk pull it from the game!". And that even goes to mods, the designers tend to force you into playing their approach. I see it in each and every mod I've ever played, including TNM.

BioShock is a brilliant example of that. The wrench in that game can become so powerful that people find themselves using it all the time

This is weapon balance more than game balance. Case in point with TNM (and I'll use two levels). I find that I can handle about 90% of ABI however I like. But there's one point if you're not carrying explosives you're fucked - you're forcing me into playing the game a way I might not want to play it. The space station is another example: At one point if you're not packing the EMP pistol or shotgun, you're fucked. But this is all mods, so don't take this criticism too hard. And speaking of all mods, I find in every one of them that you're generally pretty fucked if you don't run computer skill at least advanced.

DX itself simply doesn't do this. As well known (enough) by the reviews and whatever, I have the option of playing it however I would like. Take the NSF generator level for example. I can go in the front door, toss LAMs, and shoot away with my shotgun. Or I can sneak around the building, use my riot prod to take out what I see, get to the control computer and use it and be to the helicopter before anyone knows anything is wrong...or a number of other ways...the game doesn't force me into one particular way.

How many times have you completed Deus Ex, before you decided to play only using low tech weapons? And how useful did you find charged items on your first playthrough?

Let me ask you a question, rather. A better one in fact than these. If you've played through 20 times do you play exactly the same way as you played the game the first time? Hopefully not because you've learned the items and learned how they can best be used. And hopefully you'll have found useful utility for some items by the 20th playthrough that you didn't figure out on the first playthrough.

[Jonas]

Actually that seems that is what we are promoting.

Actually it doesn't (see? I can make baseless statements too).

No one says that you have to impose any restrictions on yourself to be able to find use out of these things. But doing it forces you to learn what the uses are, and if you do that you might like them.

Nobody indeed says that, what has been said is that in order to find them useful enough to fill half your inventory with them, you apparently have to change the rules of the game.

I believe that's what I've been saying, as I see that in most of what has been posted here. "I don't like / can't use it." usually then brings calls for "that's junk pull it from the game!". And that even goes to mods, the designers tend to force you into playing their approach. I see it in each and every mod I've ever played, including TNM.

You are not going to just say that and move on. You're going to tell me exactly how, where, and why we force you into "playing our approach" (how do you know my approach to Deus Ex anyway? Have you been spying on me playing?).

This is weapon balance more than game balance.

Oh I would love to hear your explanation of how weapon balance isn't a part of the game balance. Go on.

Case in point with TNM (and I'll use two levels). I find that I can handle about 90% of ABI however I like. But there's one point if you're not carrying explosives you're fucked - you're forcing me into playing the game a way I might not want to play it.

What place is that?

The space station is another example: At one point if you're not packing the EMP pistol or shotgun, you're fucked.

No for fuck's sake, what place is that? What makes you think you can get away with just saying things like that without pointing out exactly where? I find that completely exasperating

But this is all mods, so don't take this criticism too hard.

Don't patronise me. I think I have done nothing to deserve that.

And speaking of all mods, I find in every one of them that you're generally pretty fucked if you don't run computer skill at least advanced.

I assure you it is completely possible to play through TNM 1.0.4 without levelling up your Computer skill. There were some glitches in the first versions that meant you had to have computers on Trained on the Space Station, but I fixed that in a patch. Try it before you announce it isn't possible.

DX itself simply doesn't do this. As well known (enough) by the reviews and whatever, I have the option of playing it however I would like. Take the NSF generator level for example. I can go in the front door, toss LAMs, and shoot away with my shotgun. Or I can sneak around the building, use my riot prod to take out what I see, get to the control computer and use it and be to the helicopter before anyone knows anything is wrong...or a number of other ways...the game doesn't force me into one particular way.

No, sure it doesn't, that's what makes it awesome and what we as modders all aspire to replicate (and fail on different levels, though I like to think TNM came pretty damn close). That doesn't mean every item is equally useful, however, which is what you've been arguing. Obviously not every item should be equally useful, there are other factors to balance out usefulness (availability, inventory space, skill requirements), some items are just there to provide flavour (like the liquor or the cigarettes), and some are supposed to be useful only under certain circumstances (such as the hazmat suit or the PS20).

When it comes to something like skills, however, the amount of skillpoints it costs to upgrade really needs to match how useful a skill is, and I don't seem to be the only one who believes environmental training, swimming, and demolitions just aren't useful enough to justify their cost. It's even worse for augmentations, because choosing an almost completely redundant augmentation like Aqualung bars you from installing its far more usable alternative.

Let me ask you a question, rather. A better one in fact than these. If you've played through 20 times do you play exactly the same way as you played the game the first time? Hopefully not because you've learned the items and learned how they can best be used. And hopefully you'll have found useful utility for some items by the 20th playthrough that you didn't figure out on the first playthrough.

Sure, it's great that Deus Ex has enough depth that you can keep learning about new ways to use existing items, that's one of the things that makes the game the classic that it is. But throughout your 20 playthroughs, have you ever found the Aqualung to be a more worthwhile option that its alternative? Because I never have.

[Hassat Hunter]

I have no idea what he talks about with ABI either, but I think he means lvl 4 of gamespy with his second command (the hoverbots and the movable platforms down).

And even with 1.0.4 you can get stuck without computer if you kill plot-critical NPC's too early (Beeblequix/MIB).

And yeah, I actually think TNM offers more freedom of choices than DX did, bar the cultsidequest then (oh, and Shadowcode)...

[Jonas]

I have no idea what he talks about with ABI either, but I think he means lvl 4 of gamespy with his second command (the hoverbots and the movable platforms down).

Good guess, but those are just as easily disposable with any other explosive weapon, avoidable by using radar transparency (or adaptive camo, I think), or you can just run away from them, especially if you have the regen aug.

And even with 1.0.4 you can get stuck without computer if you kill plot-critical NPC's too early (Beeblequix/MIB).

That's true, I considered mentioning that, but honestly... fuck it

(oh, and Shadowcode)...

Well of course ShadowCode is deliberately a linear mission, but even within those constraints, you still have full freedom to use whatever equipment, skills, and augs you may have brought into the mission

It's not really fair to bring TNM into a discussion like this, it forces me to tone down my arguments so as not to seem defensive and averse to criticism.

[ggrotz]

Okay...I'm going to try to be as civil as possible. But I find it odd that I'm having to go into game design factors...

Nobody indeed says that, what has been said is that in order to find them useful enough to fill half your inventory with them, you apparently have to change the rules of the game.

Maybe because I used enough of them that they were worth keeping around in number. Besides with that kind of game, what else are you going to do with the space?

You're going to tell me exactly how, where, and why we force you into "playing our approach" (how do you know my approach to Deus Ex anyway? Have you been spying on me playing?).

Because people tend to do what they like. If they like playing a certain way in a game they're going to set things up to play that way. That goes for any coding project of any length. If I don't like it I'm not going to spend a bunch of time on it. If I like playing with all the guns all the time, chances are I'm not going to bother with a non-lethal mission when I make a mod. And I'm going to make sure enough ammo is throughout the game for the stuff I like, and not necessarily care about the stuff I hate. And I'm definitely going to not care if I can sneak through my level with the prod and baton without being seen, if I like playing with the guns and killing everything in sight.

That's just a fact of life. I happen to code utilities and stuff and happen to have spent a lot of time on some things, yet I'm not going to spend all that time on stuff I hate. Follow?

Oh I would love to hear your explanation of how weapon balance isn't a part of the game balance. Go on.

I have to laugh on this one, especially given what was said before, considering there's two or three weapons in TNM which act exactly like the example you gave. If you remember my previous posts I called them Uber Deth Kanons after the weapon in Cassandra. I happened to notice that you can take the quad launcher from the guy on the factory roof of ABI and run through the rest of ABI to Ryan without a challenge. The only limit is ammo, if I didn't have that I wouldn't put the quad launcher down if I wanted a cheap win out of the game.

But to get back to the point above, if I make a mod I can change the game to prefer certain weapons over others. There are some mods which have weapons that are so cheap they aren't worth messing with - they have little use or little HP. Also there are levels that are set up which prefer one weapon over the other, either through ammo availability or the nature of the enemies (if I fill a level full of milbots, pistols aren't going to be good). That's what's being said with reflect to game balance. "Weapon balance" plays a part, sure, but the level design and the nature of the creatures placed within it will play a part as well in game balance.

Case in point with TNM (and I'll use two levels). I find that I can handle about 90% of ABI however I like. But there's one point if you're not carrying explosives you're fucked - you're forcing me into playing the game a way I might not want to play it.

What place is that?

I was referring to the lobby of the space tech lab, but it'll work for the beginning of ABI too, since 95% of the time you have the security bot waiting for you when you break out of the ice so you can't run anywhere without being slaughtered (BTW, that % is good for chance to be spotted in that section, unaided). As for the space tech lab, I was referring to the tranq mines, but I ended up walking through them and solving that - cheap solution however.

The space station is another example: At one point if you're not packing the EMP pistol or shotgun, you're fucked.

I was referring to the hoverbots in the chamber, but I got reminded of a better example in the OSC with the hoverbots. The only way to get to the computer and do the puzzle without getting sliced up is to be packing that stuff. Or hack.

I assure you it is completely possible to play through TNM 1.0.4 without levelling up your Computer skill.

I'll be fair about it. I did the PDX game without doing that, but I did run into a couple of spots where I felt I was shorted for the level design in not having it (the before mentioned OSC being one of them). I don't know about the WC side, but I can't think of anything specific I had to hack through to proceed - the NSC was pretty obfuscated in that regard but I eventually figured it out after about 30 minutes.

But overall, for all mods, I stand by that statement, even for TNM. I point to the "hint" suggesting computer skill upgrades within TNM, which I definitely find to be true (do you want to disavow it, Jonas?). The level design is in many regards made to necessitate computer skill at points and your life is indeed "much easier" in TNM with it than without it.

That doesn't mean every item is equally useful, however, which is what you've been arguing.

No I'm arguing that every SKILL set should be equally useful. You use the weapons and items in utilizing the skill sets, so those weapons and items are going to come into play with regards to those. For DX, I notice there isn't enough skill points to max them all out so you have to SPECIALIZE (that's the RPG part of it) to make them useful. I find in the numbers of variations there are that you start out with a weapon skill and then you discover that there are certain complementary skills and augs to that. So you build from there. What was pointed out (and the purpose of the low-tech game inventory screen), is that some of the complementary skills are more useful with some primary weapon skills than others.

When it comes to something like skills, however, the amount of skillpoints it costs to upgrade really needs to match how useful a skill is, and I don't seem to be the only one who believes environmental training, swimming, and demolitions just aren't useful enough to justify their cost.

And you point out three complementary skills, which pay off to invest in if you go with certain primary skills. For example, if I play with pistols (basically a light weapon set), demolitions becomes useful. If I play close combat or non-lethal, the environmental skills become more useful (along with demolitions, it's a bitch to try to sneak and have a grenade go boom that's stuck to the wall).

It's even worse for augmentations, because choosing an almost completely redundant augmentation like Aqualung bars you from installing its far more usable alternative.

But throughout your 20 playthroughs, have you ever found the Aqualung to be a more worthwhile option that its alternative? Because I never have.

Have you ever known a game to not have any genuine junk items? For DX, where swimming is a factor I find upgrading the swimming skill one level is generally enough where rebreathers are not available. But part of the reason why I made the original post is to point out that people need to be very careful in identifying what is truly junk because their preferences come into play. To that end, I know many game players who would love DX that don't like it now if the skill system were pulled out, and all the weapons but the firearms and GEP gun were pulled out of it (basically glorified DOOM). And I am pretty sure that many DX players wouldn't care one bit if the latter were done.

And that's the correct message out of my posts: Make sure what you think is junk really is.

[ggrotz]

IAnd yeah, I actually think TNM offers more freedom of choices than DX did, bar the cultsidequest then (oh, and Shadowcode)...

In terms of plot design yes, in terms of how to solve the levels, no.

[ggrotz]

Good guess, but those are just as easily disposable with any other explosive weapon, avoidable by using radar transparency (or adaptive camo, I think), or you can just run away from them, especially if you have the regen aug.

Some pretty specific options there, and only good if you're upgraded on it. One of my saved games had radar transparency at level 1 and I burned out all the bioenergy (100%) by the time I got to the third platform. I tried without regen and healed 450 pts by the 3rd platform with my medkits, and died by the time I got to the bottom, having run out of medkits. Pretty specific options and you're pretty messed up if you don't have them.

you still have full freedom to use whatever equipment, skills, and augs you may have brought into the mission

As with anything, but the question is can you have full success with any choice of equipment, skills, and augs (more properly skill set or skill class)? Or are you stuck packing rifles, shotguns, and pistols everywhere you go?

It's not really fair to bring TNM into a discussion like this, it forces me to tone down my arguments so as not to seem defensive and averse to criticism.

Uhm, looking up at the forum title...since we are where we are, it's kind of hard for TNM to not slip into debates somewhere along the line, especially given the visibility that OTP has worked to gain for it.

I'll point to another mod (or two), then to make my point (Double Cross):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6KxPd8gGw0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkDnguK_Uqo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppIHe0DQtIQ

and Omega:
http://www.youtube.com/user/DHalix232#g ... D02265331C

Do you think (or not think) that the mod creators designed these mods to force a certain skill set or methodology in playing them? What do you observe in each of them that would cause a move towards a certain skill set? (Clue: I played Omega in the easiest way it could be played without running out of ammo.)

[Jonas]

Too late, lost interest.

[Hassat Hunter]

That's just a fact of life. I happen to code utilities and stuff and happen to have spent a lot of time on some things, yet I'm not going to spend all that time on stuff I hate. Follow?

As coder, you might not always have that choice. I guess if you don't, that's good for you, but in general the boring tedious stuff takes more time to make properly function .

I happened to notice that you can take the quad launcher from the guy on the factory roof of ABI and run through the rest of ABI to Ryan without a challenge. The only limit is ammo, if I didn't have that I wouldn't put the quad launcher down if I wanted a cheap win out of the game.

Do I hear "balance" there. If it wasn't for ammo, then !!!
Uh, that's kind of the point of balance, ain't it? Or did I miss some vital lessons during balance 101 that omit weapon ammo from being able to limit a powerful weapon (BFG or Redeemer anyone? Ggrotz perhaps?)

"Weapon balance" plays a part, sure, but the level design and the nature of the creatures placed within it will play a part as well in game balance.

That goes without saying. But where in TNM is a level "filled with Milbots". Sure, there are 4 in ABI, but you can hack them to work on your side, or not have them activate by being stealthy, or just take 'em down...

but it'll work for the beginning of ABI too, since 95% of the time you have the security bot waiting for you when you break out of the ice so you can't run anywhere without being slaughtered

That bot got a pretty big patrol area, much with his back turned, so even if this happens just hide until it's in the proper place.
That's usually how stealth works regardless.
I find I have more trouble sneaking past the 2 ABI Guards than that guardbot.

As for the space tech lab, I was referring to the tranq mines, but I ended up walking through them and solving that - cheap solution however.

You ARE aware you can just shoot them, right? Guess not. Read descriptions better next time in the future .

I was referring to the hoverbots in the chamber, but I got reminded of a better example in the OSC with the hoverbots. The only way to get to the computer and do the puzzle without getting sliced up is to be packing that stuff. Or hack.

Or prevent them from finding you by sneaking carefully. Or use one of the camo-suits you praise so much, or use radar transparancy.
I get more the feeling you're locked in a "way it's meant to be played" attitude than TNM is, like you try to convince us...

I'll be fair about it. I did the PDX game without doing that, but I did run into a couple of spots where I felt I was shorted for the level design in not having it.

And how exactly is that different from DX? Computer skill IS very valuable to have, seriously making your life easier in both. But, in neither is it absolutely required to acquire.
It makes your life easier, yes. But required, no.
What's next? Complaining about optional doors because you didn't pick the lockpick skill and that's a horrid designflaw?

I point to the "hint" suggesting computer skill upgrades within TNM, which I definitely find to be true (do you want to disavow it, Jonas?).

It's absolutely true. I am not sure what it has to do with your argument though. It's like the hint system stating "Sniper rifles are good for taking down enemies over long distances" and you then complaining you need that on shotguns too to be fair or something?

The level design is in many regards made to necessitate computer skill at points and your life is indeed "much easier" in TNM with it than without it.

As it should. And does. Like DX. If it was the other way around, I bet you would be here complaining how useless computer skill would have been.

No I'm arguing that every SKILL set should be equally useful.

We all agree... and state this ain't the case with DX, and thus, as a result, TNM.
Environmental, swimming and demoliton are behind most other options, and TNM did made tweaks to help this (remove swimming, molotovs).

You use the weapons and items in utilizing the skill sets, so those weapons and items are going to come into play with regards to those. For DX, I notice there isn't enough skill points to max them all out so you have to SPECIALIZE (that's the RPG part of it) to make them useful. I find in the numbers of variations there are that you start out with a weapon skill and then you discover that there are certain complementary skills and augs to that. So you build from there. What was pointed out (and the purpose of the low-tech game inventory screen), is that some of the complementary skills are more useful with some primary weapon skills than others.

Somewhere, somethere, you forgot to mention how exactly TNM does this the EXACT same as DX. Or wait, according to you it doesn't. Can't quite record what from here though, care to explain?

And you point out three complementary skills, which pay off to invest in if you go with certain primary skills. For example, if I play with pistols (basically a light weapon set), demolitions becomes useful. If I play close combat or non-lethal, the environmental skills become more useful (along with demolitions, it's a bitch to try to sneak and have a grenade go boom that's stuck to the wall).

Although most grenades don't do damage or have acc, and the LAM is usually untrained good enough in blowing up what you want. Doesn't leave much use for upgrading bar that little extra damage for LAMs or having more disarming time.
Environmental IMO is rather useless because the items are too rare to spend skills in that, I rather use the augs that do somewhat the same. And that's still the same with TNM, and the droprate is somewhat the same to me.
I fail to see how combat armor would help with a stealth play. Camo, sure, but then you probably have radar and cloak maxed anyway, and use the skillpoints to upgrade more useful hacking/lockpick/multitool.

But part of the reason why I made the original post is to point out that people need to be very careful in identifying what is truly junk because their preferences come into play.

Cigarettes are truly junk. PS20's. Zyme.
Environmental just generally aren't that useful. They are just too rare (the ammo balance thing you mentioned earlier). And they aren't powerful enough to make up for their rarity (like HE20 for example).

And that's the correct message out of my posts: Make sure what you think is junk really is.

I think Environmental traing is junk. And I am sure .

IAnd yeah, I actually think TNM offers more freedom of choices than DX did, bar the cultsidequest then (oh, and Shadowcode)...

In terms of plot design yes, in terms of how to solve the levels, no.

Ehm... yeah... yeah it does. Maybe even more. Well, excluding the LEVIATHAN section (but that requires no player imput at all, so I can't say that could be 'difficult' in any way, and Shadowcode, even if there are plenty of options there too.

Some pretty specific options there, and only good if you're upgraded on it.

Okay, you do a stealth run and not upgrade stealth augs? Something is amiss there. Can't blame TNM for being more difficult if you make stupid decisions (like... well... most games do). You can also get more creative . A well-timed EMP grenade does the trick too, since they are relatively close to the floor there. HE20. Camo-suit.
If Low-Tech only, slice them with the DTS/FireSword. Although that gets you damaged, sure.
Enough options to pick... but if you obstinate refuse ALL of them in favour of only YOUR solution, which doesn't work... maybe you should reconsider who exactly here is the one stuck in his playstyle... we or you.

As with anything, but the question is can you have full success with any choice of equipment, skills, and augs (more properly skill set or skill class)? Or are you stuck packing rifles, shotguns, and pistols everywhere you go?

No.
Unless you somehow decide to fuck over all your stealthskills (incl. Computer) and stealthaugs. And stealth items.
Yeah... I wonder why stealth becomes harder then. Not impossible, mind you, just a lot harder.

Do you think (or not think) that the mod creators designed these mods to force a certain skill set or methodology in playing them?

No idea. But TNM was made to reflect DX's playstyle, which allows pretty much any methodology or skill set. And they succeeded it with it quite nicely.
And if you watch the "play TNM with 5 multitools and a LAM" walkthrough you see it succeeds adequately in being possible to do so, bar Shadowcode (but it was already stated that was intentional).

[chris the cynic]

You're going to tell me exactly how, where, and why we force you into "playing our approach" (how do you know my approach to Deus Ex anyway? Have you been spying on me playing?).

Because people tend to do what they like. If they like playing a certain way in a game they're going to set things up to play that way. That goes for any coding project of any length. If I don't like it I'm not going to spend a bunch of time on it. If I like playing with all the guns all the time, chances are I'm not going to bother with a non-lethal mission when I make a mod. And I'm going to make sure enough ammo is throughout the game for the stuff I like, and not necessarily care about the stuff I hate. And I'm definitely going to not care if I can sneak through my level with the prod and baton without being seen, if I like playing with the guns and killing everything in sight.

That's just a fact of life. I happen to code utilities and stuff and happen to have spent a lot of time on some things, yet I'm not going to spend all that time on stuff I hate. Follow?

What, exactly, are we meant to follow here? You just completely failed to support your contention in any way, shape or form.

You claim that The Nameless Mod forces you into playing the designers' approach and furthermore does so noticeably, yet when asked to give examples of it doing that you refused to even address the subject, instead spouting unsupported generalizations as if they were universally accepted unchanging truth.

If you speak truth, then why not share that truth with the rest of us? Why not give examples of how and where it does this?

After all, there must be examples. For you to have noticed that the game favors the designers style there must have been multiple examples. One isolated case of, "Stealth works well here and going in shooting is very hard," is not enough to conclude that the game favors a particular style, there must be multiple examples, perhaps not endemic but definitely common.

Why not share one or two of them with the rest of the class?

For that matter, why not tell us what the designers' preferred style of play is? If you can tell us that, and how you worked it out, it would prove your point for all to see. Why shrink back from such an opportunity, why hide in generalities when vindication only requires you to tell us, simply and without embellishment, that which you already know?

[JC_Helios]

Ignoring the old debate...

I was just recently recommending this mod to someone, and downloaded it again to describe some of the features. Turns out there's been several "ninja" updates. Also found that the mod has a ModDB, so for anyone like me who wanted updates but didn't know they were happening here's the link :

http://www.moddb.com/mods/biomod