Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Jonas »

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with a single part of what you just wrote. Those takedown animations look incredibly badass to me, like proper krav maga awesomeness, and I don't care with one single neuron of my brain whether or not those moves would genuinely knock somebody out in real life, I think they're easily convincing enough for me. They remind me quite a bit of the Splinter Cell series actually, which features mo-capped krav maga moves.
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Dragon »

Jonas wrote:I'm sorry but I just don't agree with a single part of what you just wrote. Those takedown animations look incredibly badass to me, like proper krav maga awesomeness, and I don't care with one single neuron of my brain whether or not those moves would genuinely knock somebody out in real life, I think they're easily convincing enough for me. They remind me quite a bit of the Splinter Cell series actually, which features mo-capped krav maga moves.
6 seconds explain the problem ;)
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Jonas »

Except it doesn't. Well done.
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

yeah the takedown mechanic is still troubling but as Jonas said, it is pretty badass to know that you can do it to pretty much any character in the game. I mean hey its a lot better than what Mass Effect did right?

Its definitely an over glorified I win button though.
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Jonas »

That's not actually what I said, but yeah that is another good point. It's good to see you can still be a complete and utter douche.

Though I guess you can't use it on bosses. Which sucks to an incredible degree.
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Dragon »

What goes for me I could live with a Chuck Norris take-down if this is the best the game developer can muster up. What annoys me more is that the take-down boils down to a 1BW (1 button win). There's no real challenge with a 1BW. At last you can't use it on bosses. This would have been the pinnacle of cheapness. One of the most satisfying and memorable moments in DX1 for me still had been the first time I successfully knocked out Gunther and Simons. But somehow in DX3 this seems to be the way to go. Take-downs are a 1BW, cover is a 1BW, chatting is a 1BW (aug). For my taste too much 1BW. Too much concentrated on console players? I could imagine without the 1BWs DX3 could be actually interesting. At last you can artificially limit yourself to not use 1BWs. Not the first game I applied custom rules to make it interesting. Actually that sounds like a plan.

EDIT:
@Jonas: What I wanted to say with that short clip is just what they said there: you want the NPC to be "unconscious" not "comatose". With those animations I expect the NPCs to end up in the morgue not waking up the next morning with a terrible hang-over ;)
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by chris the cynic »

Dragon wrote: EDIT:
@Jonas: What I wanted to say with that short clip is just what they said there: you want the NPC to be "unconscious" not "comatose". With those animations I expect the NPCs to end up in the morgue not waking up the next morning with a terrible hang-over ;)
Really?

Because it looked incredibly cartoonish to me (I mean the path that light takes through the surrounding air is literally distorted when he punches someone to the point that it appears him throwing a punch warps spacetime) to the point that I half expected the people to stand up while their torso did an accordion impression.

The coyote never goes into a coma. It simply does not happen. And we're definitely on the level of Wile E. Coyote Super Genius because the violence between Ralph E. Wolf and Sam Sheepdog held itself to a higher standard of realism. At least insofar as I recall. (I probably haven't seen a Sam and Ralph cartoon in at least a decade.)

Anyway, when a punch is accompanied by massive lensing I'm pretty sure that is visual media standard shorthand for:
"You are not supposed to take this seriously, cease and desist all efforts to consider what kinds of injuries this might cause."

Lensing is what exists for people who think having a text bubble that says, "KAPOW!" is too realistic. I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to seriously consider what would happen if you were really to punch someone in the face with a super powered metal fist with such force that it changed the course of nearby light resulting in the unmissable magnification of what an outside observer would perceive as a circular area centered around the point of impact.

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On a side note, I feel like AJ's ability to bend light by punching people in the face should have some strategic use. I'm just not sure what it would be. Potentially he could use it to allow an ally to see a little bit further around a corner than would otherwise be physically possible but, given that that would require AJ to be standing at the corner, a simpler solution would be to simply look himself and then transmit what his eyes see as video to that person.

The only things I'm coming up with to actually make use of this strange ability are highly contrived. For example he could redirect a laser beam by punching someone near its path. If the end location of the beam were distant enough from the point of impact that could theoretically save the day, but such a thing coming up would be almost as absurd as the lensing punch itself, and I think that to sell something like the lensing punch in something that doesn't involve the Road Runner or Bugs you probably need to make an effort to steer away from that level of absurdity in the rest of the work.

There is something to be said for selling an absurdity in your work of fiction by surrounding it by less absurd things. You give the impression that the absurdity itself is the only leap of faith the viewer/player/reader/listener needs to take, and that makes it easier to suspend disbelief. (Obviously the other route is to embrace the absurdity.)

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All of which is ignoring the larger point. He hits so hard that it creates lensing severe enough to result in significant magnification from the perspective of the observer. There is clearly a Chuck Norris joke in here somewhere, and in a Chuck Norris movie the people he's hitting only get as injured as the plot demands.

[Edited to Add:]
You yourself pointed out that this brings to mind Chuck Norris (though I would argue that it does so more as a meme than any part Norris ever actually played) and if you consider it in those terms, people becoming comatose is a non-issue. Biology doesn't factor in to Chuck Norris stories.
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

All of which is ignoring the larger point. He hits so hard that it creates lensing severe enough to result in significant magnification from the perspective of the observer.
This is a bloody good point, he's hitting someone with at least the force of a bomb here people (as only high velocity objects produce a visual shockwave.. and that's only in ultra slow motion). I don't think people walk away from that.
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Jonas »

I can't tell if you guys are okay with the lensing or not, personally I think it's fine. I consider it no less realistic than the nova of blue light that emerges every time an EMP goes off in Deus Ex. Cyberpunk is a fairly aesthetic genre, and a certain amount of visual exaggeration in service of The Cool is to be expected. If that's what you guys think too, I'm glad we agree.

As for the one button win, well...

I've played many games that have stealth takedowns. I don't remember ever not enjoying their use (yay double negative). What you're failing to consider is that the melee attack is the culmination of previous play. This is a game where everybody you fight is armed with ranged weapons, getting within melee range is a fairly dangerous proposition. In order to execute your "one button win", you first have to successfully execute a sequence of play during which failure can easily result in your death by acute lead poisoning. Only if you manage to play well enough to get into melee range without dying can you execute a stealth attack. Taken in context, therefore, as I feel that most things should be taken, it's not a one button win. All of this doesn't even account for the fact that the takedowns require energy to use, energy which apparently recharges very slowly.

As for your other examples of one button win, I'm not sure what you mean to say is "won" by taking cover. Yeah you press a button to enter cover, how does this win anything? As far as I know, cover far from makes you invisible, patrolling enemies can still catch you unawares and blow your cover, as it were. Similarly, I assume enemies will have grenades to flush you out of cover, I assume there's a risk they may hit you when you pop up to shoot, and I suppose they may even be able to try to flank you, forcing you to change cover and thus temporarily exposing yourself to fire. These assumptions are based in the fact that this is true for every well produced cover-based game I've ever played, so I think that's fair.

And of course I don't precisely how the conversation aug works, but I was under the impression it would simply give you more clues as to whether your choices are having the desired effects on the person you're talking to, which seems to imply that you can still get it wrong if you're not careful or you don't read the clues correctly. Without the augs, I have been lead to believe at least that the conversation-based negotiation minigame is fairly involved and even randomised somewhat to have different solutions on further playthroughs or if you cheese it with quickloads.

I mean no offence, but it's fairly clear to me you've long since made up your mind that Human Revolution is a bad game, and now it can do nothing right - every single piece of information released about the game is simply more evidence that it sucks. Fine. I'm obviously not going to change your mind, but I somewhat enjoy formulating these arguments, so I don't mind participating anyway.
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by chris the cynic »

Jonas wrote:I can't tell if you guys are okay with the lensing or not, personally I think it's fine.
I don't really care either way, but I do think it is important for interpretation.

When AJ hits someone he's got pretty much the equivalent of brass knuckles on all the time except that there's more mass behind it (his entire arm is metal) and given that it's, you know, an augmented arm we can assume that that it's almost certainly harder than an ordinary human being can hit. Even if it weren't, even if the only difference was the composition of the arm, that should still be quite deadly quite a lot of the time. It should be a major medical problem the rest of the time. If we're taking it seriously.

The lensing is a sign that we're not supposed to take it seriously. Rule of Cool tends to coincide with Don't Examine This Too Closely. As such the lensing means that you shouldn't be thinking about the medical implications of smashing someone's face with a metal object so hard that it sends their entire body into a spin eventually resulting in them stopping a few feet from where they were standing.

If you find yourself thinking, "Well an impact with that much force should have ..." the lensing is there to tell you, "Shut up. Let it go." Because only three things immediately come to mind that could do that and all of them would send the same message: "This is not an area where you should be thinking about the laws of physics."

Moreover, if one is going to complain that a certain animation must have a given physical consequence, it would be wise to make sure that the animation wasn't physically impossible in the first place.

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tl;dr version:

If not for the lensing I would probably be in agreement that there's a problem here if we're meant to believe those people were merely rendered unconscious*.

Given the lensing I'm not doing that because the lensing, to me, says that this is an area where I'm supposed to turn off my brain and not really think. It's an aesthetic experience, not an intellectual one. It is a useful shorthand in that regard.

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*If not for the lensing I would probably argue that they should either be dead or have extremely serious medical problems. Given that, I think, these are set in Detroit I could probably add that even if the medical problems proved mercifully temporary there's a decent chance that (depending on what happens with healthcare related legislation in my country) that their lives could be be utterly destroyed by the incident.

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It's probably worth pointing out that it is entirely possible, and indeed quite common, for a work to have some areas where you aren't supposed to think while having other areas where you are. AJ punching someone in the face being a place to turn off your brain doesn't mean you should't have it on and in gear throughout the rest of the game. Nothing in this post is discussing anything other than the takedowns with the lensing.
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Jaedar »

Jonas wrote:That's not actually what I said, but yeah that is another good point. It's good to see you can still be a complete and utter douche.

Though I guess you can't use it on bosses. Which sucks to an incredible degree.
IN SOVIET BOSSIA TAKEDOWN USE ON YOU!
Seriously tho, if you even get close to the first boss on deus ex difficulty you're basically dead through cutscene paralysis.
Jonas wrote:This is a game where everybody you fight is armed with ranged weapons, getting within melee range is a fairly dangerous proposition.
Not really. Enemies stop shooting you when you're takedowning someone but iirc, your health regen does not(this may have been a bug or just poor memory on my part). It is also quite easy to advance towards the enemy with cover, and its not rare that they advance towards you.
Jonas wrote:All of this doesn't even account for the fact that the takedowns require energy to use, energy which apparently recharges very slowly.
I'd say it takes 20, maybe 30 seconds without any upgrades to recharge one battery.
Jonas wrote: And of course I don't precisely how the conversation aug works, but I was under the impression it would simply give you more clues as to whether your choices are having the desired effects on the person you're talking to, which seems to imply that you can still get it wrong if you're not careful or you don't read the clues correctly. Without the augs, I have been lead to believe at least that the conversation-based negotiation minigame is fairly involved and even randomised somewhat to have different solutions on further playthroughs or if you cheese it with quickloads.
Here's a short rundown of how it works: The NPC will monologue with Jensen(ie you have no choice in what is being said), meanwhile some lights will appear and blink on and off. There are three kinds of lights(representing some vague personality traits). Then when the actual persuasion bit of the convo starts you press X which opens up three choices, each of which is liked by one trait and disliked by the others(you can't even see what Jensen will say, it just says which pair of personalty each pheromone option corresponds to). If you choose the right option you win.

So yeah, its basically Simon says with a less intuitive interface and personally, I'd call it a win button.
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Hassat Hunter »

I'll just wait release, and see what Jonas writes about his DX "Brayko"... and then decide about HR... :mrgreen:
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Dragon »

@Jonas:
If the arguments are valid then there's nothing wrong with disliking something. ;)

Concerning the 1BW with cover systems. By default they are mostly a 1BW as using the switch-cover command you are more or less invulnerable as it is a scripted event. Of course you can mess everything up so also that but if this would not be possible then it would be also not a 1BW but a GM (God Move) which would be a lot worse.
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Xesum »

A lot of games use one button for a melee take down.

Call of Duty has it's stab attack with the knife, but that's shit in comparison to HR where it shows you a graphic display of violence which is much more entertaining.
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Re: Deus Ex 3 - I'll just leave this here

Post by Jonas »

Hassat Hunter wrote:I'll just wait release, and see what Jonas writes about his DX "Brayko"... and then decide about HR... :mrgreen:
Oh I fully expect to enter catatonic rage over the bosses, everything I've heard about them sounds completely awful.
Dragon wrote:Concerning the 1BW with cover systems. By default they are mostly a 1BW as using the switch-cover command you are more or less invulnerable as it is a scripted event. Of course you can mess everything up so also that but if this would not be possible then it would be also not a 1BW but a GM (God Move) which would be a lot worse.
Taking cover isn't a scripted event any more than crouching or firing your weapon is a scripted event, and I have yet to see a game where being in cover makes you invulnerable. At most, games like Gears of War encourage you to spend most of the game in cover by significantly lowering the amount of damage you take while in cover, but that's pretty far on the "less" side of "more or less invulnerable".

Your made-up acronyms are getting a little silly btw. I guess it's a nice way to make it sound like you have some massive established body of design theory on your side, but if you're only using the term "God Move" once in your post, how about just doing it instead of defining an acronym that you never use again? :-s
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