Deus Ex before final version

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Morpheus
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Deus Ex before final version

Post by Morpheus »

I asked this in another forum that has a forum for BETA games and someone said about Deus Ex (the moon mission is the one that was scrapped about JC going to the moon on a mission:
As far as I know, there were two additional scenarios that had to be scrapped during development:
In one of them, the player was supposed to stage a huge breakout in a prison complex. Unfortunately the technology wasn't ready for this, as they couldn't get dozens, let alone hundreds, of escaping prisoners to work in the engine.

The other mission was set in Los Angeles. In the game lore, Los Angeles was destroyed in an earthquake in the 2030s and sunk. The player would be able to work his way through the sunken ruins of LA, which sounds pretty awesome and would make the swimming gear and skills a lot more useful.

One more information about the moon mission:
This level is still in the game, but it has been reworked as Area51. This was the original moon base. If you think about it, it does look slightly more like a moon base than an underground complex. I believe the moon location was dropped because they couldn't make it work in the storyline without delaying the game further.
Also said that they had a video of a test map level that is no longer in the game, if its posted, I'll post a link here. Is the LA and Jail breakout missions true? LA seems plausible but can't imagine a Jail breakout though.
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by Jonas »

Jail breakout is true yeah, I remember reading about that - not really a prison so much as an internment camp. Don't remember exactly what the story was there, something about POWs being held by MJ12 I think. I don't really remember hearing about the sunken LA, but it does ring a vague bell - that could just be my memory playing tricks on me though. That said, isn't the Ocean Lab set on the West Coast?

The test level I've heard about was the White House, which they apparently scrapped because it wasn't any fun to play (and not, contrary to persistent rumours, because the FBI ordered them to cut the level). I've never heard anything about a video of it, but I'd certainly love to see one if it exists :mrgreen:
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by DaveW »

Actually after reading the Deus Ex Bible thing yesterday I took a look on gaming sites to see some old screenshots of Deus Ex - very interesting to see how different areas developed.

For example, Hong Kong (and an alternate version of the pistol):
Image

Liberty Island with significantly more of the statue missing:
Image

Vandenburg with Dogs and a lack of wall:
Image

A slightly different version of Paris:
Image
Image

Also a specific model of Sam Carter (?) - don't think this was used in the game.
Image

I'm sure there's more around, like some of the old New York, but they're not on IGN. Quite interesting to see old screenshots of Invisible War, too - how the UI went from being quite cool to the annoying circular/iris design in the final.

Also there's still a Moon texture package in the final game but there's not many textures in it. I don't know why it got left in whe the entire Moon map got turned into Area51 (which then got it's own texture package).
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by Dragon »

You mean that one?
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/20 ... een007.jpg (can't show image... forum re-strict-gulations)

EDIT:
Another one... this should fit into forum re-strict-gulations:
Image
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by chris the cynic »

The moon mission was to stop an AI called Ada, they scrapped it because they decided that Deus Ex was a terrestrial story. Getting to the moon would have involved space station hopping. On an old largely abandoned space station you'd find Jerry Wildman, who was stranded in space when the NASA funding dried up. Just out of his reach was an MJ12 luxury space station, they wouldn't spare some change to get him back on terra firma, but they constructed opulence in front of him while he watched. He was pissed off about it.

From Wildman's space station you'd go to the MJ12 one, from there to the moon. I think. (I've reproduced an email one of the dev's sent me below.) Something like that.

Chris Todd thought that the White House mission might have had something to do with a clone of the president but that was cut before he was hired. In the continutity bible it mentioned that Mt. Weather was going to be in the game in the same section as the White House (I seem to recall it mentioning the player going back and forth between the two, locations, but I could be imagining that.)

FEMA concentration camps are mentioned in the final game (as are FBI run "good behavior camps" for juveniles, for that matter) but the original plan called for there to be an actual raid on one of them, presumably to free the prisoners. That was not the only jailbreak in planned. There was going to be a raid on a slave ship in Kowloon Bay (the same bay Tong was to have his base in.) You'd go there to talk to a critical slave, but one of your options would be arming the slaves. Revolution!

There was definitely a plan to include sunken LA, but other than the fact there was such a plan I don't think we know anything about it.
Steve Powers wrote:It is true that the original scope of DX was MUCH larger, and a great deal of it was removed during development, but very little of it would make sense in relation to what the final game turned out to be. After things like the Russo-Mexican battle in downtown Austin, the Chinese moon base and the White House were cut, the story was amended to work without them and then continued to evolve as a smaller entity. The result is that many of the cut elements make little or no sense related to the context of the final game.

A full-scale battle with many combatants in a rubble-strewn street was impossible to do in our technology, so the scene from Texas was cut. The thing I regret most about that was the loss of two NPCs. They were a buddy duo named Tillson and "The Ghoul", a pair of underground fighters who did some profiteering on the side. Sort of like Jay and Silent Bob, I guess.

Another character I hated to see cut was Jerry Wildman. A NASA astronaut who was stranded in orbit when the space program fell apart. Years of living alone on a derelict station in zero G made him a unique character, and JC would have a chance to recruit him to help infiltrate a second space station that was to be the "Titanic" of space, a massive luxury station where the most elite could live out of international law's reach. Jerry Wildman had been in orbit on a tub leaking air and falling apart while MJ12 constructed this super station just out of his reach, ignoring him all the while. Needless to say he was bitter.

Much of the lower areas of Area 51 were actually constructed as a moon base, but when the moon was cut the maps were repurposed as you see them in the final game.

The White House was an easy environment to build, but in the end there was very little to do there other than walk around, and it was decidedly un-fun to play. With that we learned that many realistic and recognizable locations don't really make for fun gameplay.

Tracer Tong originally hid his lab in the guts of an abandoned cargo freighter in Kowloon bay, and if you look at his underground lab now it still largely conforms to the curved hull of the ship it was once in. To reach him the player had to move along a floating sampan island crewed by guards trying to hold you at bay. There was also a scene where MJ12 helicopters mounted a rocket attack on his ship when you tried to leave.

Early in development Gary Savage and Howard Strong were both leaders of cultish communities in the desert that engineered deadly fighting robots and sent them against each other in an arena. The player was able to take part in designing a bot and sending it to fight.

There is so much that hit the cutting room floor it is staggering.
More dev emails (though not much more) in the dev email thread.

Once upon a time I tried to compile everything we knew (this was before I got responses from Chris Todd and Steve Powers I think), it probably comes mostly from the postmortem and scattered interviews. I think that I went back and repeatedly updated the thread as I learned more but the thread was lost with the PDX archives and thus all that remains is a copy of the first post I put up on ttlg. See below.

Stuff in italics is direct quotation:
chris the cynic wrote:In terms of what there was:
More than 200 characters

March 1998 = 300 pages of documentation
April 1999 = 500 pages, much of it radically different from what was written initially.
Left with 270 pages

More than 25 missions including:
Austin
Siberia
Washington, DC
NORAD
London
Sunken L.A. (post-earthquake)
Moon (Ada, AI that wanted to become a "benevolent" world dictator.)
Mt. Weather
Space station

Raids on concentration camps to free 2,000 prisoners from UN troops under FEMA control.

Hong Kong
Gordon Quick hid his journal under his bunk, and in it he admits his romantic feelings for the daughter of Max Chen, enemy of his triad. If there had been time and resources, she might have been a character in the game and the Romeo and Juliet scenario might have featured JC in the role of the Friar. If JC brought the triads together in Hong Kong, we can assume that Gordon and his love lived happily ever after. At least until JC brought about the end of the world...

The End
At the last minute, a few months before shipping, I suggested that we create a "losing" cut-scene for when the player dies in Area 51 and a cut-scene for evil players who wanted to join Bob Page - but we were out of time at that point.

X-51
There were certainly some cuts in the number of groups in the game. The cathedral in Paris was going to have Templar guards, for instance. Gary Savage's crew were going to be called "Salvagers" and they were going to be under attack by "Pirates," I believe, but again due to time restraints the pirates were replaced by MJ12.

In Mission 14's "silo" map there is a scientist named Howard Strong who has turned against the X-51 scientist. In a last-ditch effort to stop J.C., Strong tries sabotaging the rocket headed for Area 51. In the shipping version of the game, this boils down to Howard madly throwing grenades at J.C. Not what we had planned, originally, to say the least. The original Vandenberg storyline consisted of 2 factions, the Raiders and the Salvagers. The Raiders were a hostile group trying to get a hold of the Salvager base. Gary Savage (leader of the Salvagers) was (going to be) killed during the mission and Tiffany Savage (his daughter) would have only agreed to help the player if he could have brought the murderer to justice. According to the plan, Gary's body would have been found in the radioactive tunnels with a password scribed on the wall in blood (This would have been the login for his computer and would have pointed the finger at Gary's assistant, Howard Strong, exposing Strong's ties with the Raiders and his plans to take over the base). J.C. then could have fought through the Raiders to reach and kill Howard Strong, or, as wacky as this sounds, J.C. would have had to beat Howard Strong's killer spider bot in a battledome constructed for robot wars. This is where the spider bot actually came from. Then there was also a love story between Tiffany Savage and Ned Strong (Howard's son).


Slaves
There used to be a slave trader on a junk in Kowloon. JC was to board the junk, free the slaves (in order to talk to one critical one) and bring the slave lord to justice. He could arm the slaves and turn them loose against their former oppressors, but things got really messy when MJ12 attack helicopters located JC and began attacking the junk.
Or something like that.

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[Edited to add:]
They should have stuck with a unique model for Sam Carter, using a non unique model restricted his augmentations to being the size and shape of boots. I'm guessing most people didn't even notice he was augmented at all. Plus, replacing a boot sized bit of foot/leg with a mech aug makes no sense whatsoever. It would work just as well (and be less visibly disfiguring) to use low tech prostheses for that. If I were doing a Deus Ex remake I'd definitely go back to the original concept art and give Sam back his fully mechanical leg.
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by nerdenstein »

If a Deus Ex remake were to be developed, I'd totally want you on the dev team. :P
I must ask; if you were on the dev team, would you include these cut storylines?
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by Morpheus »

Here is the video: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VYS7NA0T I am about to watch it, in narrated in German though but not very informative

Edit: Just watched it, personal computers seem different, the one in the test level, the screen "pops out" and when its accessed, its way different than final computer windows. Also, bit hard to tell, but is Paul's voice a little different here?

BTW, if anyone can translate what the narrator is saying, might be useful...I can only understand a little German, so not very good.
Early in development Gary Savage and Howard Strong were both leaders of cultish communities in the desert that engineered deadly fighting robots and sent them against each other in an arena. The player was able to take part in designing a bot and sending it to fight.
Howard Strong I can imagine, but Gary Savage? I can understand how way different the original idea was, wow.

Yeah I'd want those in a remake too and you in the team, have to read it later, little busy with work right now.
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by Dragon »

I could translate but the download link is down unfortunately.
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by Morpheus »

Strange, still works for me, try this: http://www725.megaupload.com/files/34ff ... Deusex.mpg
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by gamer0004 »

This one is also interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpFQkcOzgTo

And about the moon base mission: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/16 ... never-was/
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by chris the cynic »

nerdenstein wrote:If a Deus Ex remake were to be developed, I'd totally want you on the dev team. :P
I must ask; if you were on the dev team, would you include these cut storylines?
Are you kidding? I've been trying to figure out how to work them back in for ages.

The obvious solution to something like Tong's boat based lab is for you to get to Hong Kong earlier or later, probably earlier. If instead of going back to UNATCO you were to help Lebedev escape (or perhaps even earlier, say to Paul outside the plane, "Ok, I believe you, we have to go now,") then you'd get to Hong Kong earlier and perhaps Tong would be on his boat which gives you a reason to have an entire new section of the game based around the harbor. Being earlier would also mean that you'd be in less of a hurry to get to the supertanker (it would still be in route) and perhaps could have someone else deal with it entirely thus have more time for other missions, that would be about the right time for missions in DC.

Back in Hong Kong,
I just wasted a lot of time looking for a conversation that might not exist, I thought that at some point Tong referenced one of his agents disappearing, specifically the woman who got the keypad code to VersaLife level 2. Even more time wasted and now I can be pretty much certain it didn't exist. Even though it turned out to be a faulty memory, it would still be just as possible to do what I was thinking of because what I was thinking of was basically exactly what we know of the original plan for the slave ship: there's someone on it you're sent to rescue/talk to. Very simple. Should be easy to work in regardless. I was thinking that Tong's agent could have information on something you stumble across, or you could just stumble across information on the abduction of said agent and be sent on a rescue mission for the sheer [altruism/human decency/leave no one behindishness] of it.

Ok, leaving Hong Kong, a way to get space back in the game would be if you could, early in the game, screw up an MJ12 operation to the moon. Ideally the player would have no idea that that's what they were doing because there would be no reason for them to. You're just exploring, say, an expanded section of New York and run across whatever. Kick some ass, and the people who's ass you kicked don't get to go to the moon. (Or you find a computer with info on it and Alex sends a warning along to the moonbase about a possible upcoming terrorist attack.) Whatever the exact details, the point is that you changed something that you wouldn't have had a chance to change in ordinary Deus Ex, that's what allows the story to go off the rails of ordinary Deus Ex and send you to space.

The idea being that the operation that you compromised was the reason that Ada doesn't appear in the game as released.

I'd bring Ada in right after the ocean lab. Page gives his, "If the missile is accurate," speech and Ada puts the kibosh on that. The threat is that if the various groups don't disarm right there right then death will rain down from space, and she can do it with the mass driver. From there everyone wants to go to the moon. I'd guess that Simons would lead the MJ12 team, you'd probably need to steal a ride into space. MJ12 would already have a foothold by the time that you arrive, the important point is that the moon, the space stations, and Wildman are all back in.

Other things are harder. How do you squeeze a trip to Austin, or Siberia, or Sunken LA? Where does London fit in?

Austin is still referenced in Deus Ex a few times, characters from it are listed amoung the things that Steve Powers regrets losing, I'd definitely want to see about getting it back in. The Russio-Mexian alliance really ought to be encountered and the three way battle between them, the NSF and the US would be an interesting thing to see.

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Basically, if I were doing a remake my guiding principle would be to put in as much as possible while still making a playthrough that only hit the original things perfectly legitimate and coherent in light of the new stuff. One thing that that would mean is that anything new would have to be either a side mission or a mission that you've somehow brought on yourself (something like the above idea where you disrupting an MJ12 sabotage operation is the reason Ada is in play, the Moon wouldn't be a side mission, but it would be something avoidable.)

I would almost certainly be a horrible project manager because mission creep is basically what I would embrace.

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The biggest hindrance to such a project (other than the fact that it would consume resources on a scale worthy of tribbles) is that allowing for the original Deus Ex to remain a legitimate playthough really places limits on what one can do in terms of time. Deus Ex takes place over the course of four days. Four Days.

To be able to reinsert some of the removed missions that are not right next to current missions would require some kind of a wrench to be thrown into the works to mess slow things down. Things would also have to be slowed down from two directions. On the MJ12 side someone somewhere has to stop Page from figuring out how to make nanites compatible with himself (or stop him from getting the schematics he needs from Ocean Lab) otherwise he becomes a God just as fast as he would in Deus Ex. (Well, actually, Helios might have played an important factor in that too.) On the other side of things, something has to happen slow down JC and make not going to his next canon Deus Ex objective seem like a reasonable idea.

If he should happen to bump into the President have the President tell him that he's needed in Austin (or whatever), perhaps that would make him think twice before heading off to his next original objective. The obvious problem with such a thing is that when JC goes from place to place there always tends to be a reason he's in such a hurry (curing a virus, stopping a missile, saving the world, so on) and coming up with a legitimate reason to hold off on that hurry to stop by the sunken ruins of LA could be difficult.

The only real place I can think of where there is a completely obvious reason for JC to stop and not do his next Deus Ex objective would be if Page decided not to launch the missile. (Or was otherwise incapable of launching it) The reason that could work is because the missile is what allowed JC to get into Area 51 yet his going there was purely reactionary. None of the good guys came up with the idea, "Let's launch a nuclear missile at Area 51 so you can fly in no problem and get passed the surface security while they're licking their wounds. So if Page doesn't try to nuke Vandenberg, JC doesn't nuke Area 51, which means that taking the fight to Page probably wouldn't happen and perhaps then JC would have time to do other stuff, but there are two obvious objections. The first is that that is very late in the game to add in a bunch of missions (you can probably get away with the Moon because that would be epic endgame kind of stuff, sending you off to Siberia, London, LA and Austin not so much) the second is, why would Page not want to launch the missile?

LA, Austin, and the FEMA concentration camp would all likely be great levels to have, quite possible some of the others as well, but finding a way to fit them in that doesn't leave them feeling like they've been tacked on in a place they don't belong would be very difficult. The game can be, loosely, divided into two sections: your time at UNATCO, and everything else. Your time at UNATCO is spent entirely in New York, it should probably be possible to expand New York somewhat to allow you a lot more to do there (Make some of those doors somewhat less impossible to get through, for example.) I for one would like it if we could finally see one of the horse drawn taxis mentioned in the continuity bible (and not just because I thought the cover of the book Dinner at Deviant's Palace looked cool). But, there's not going to be much opportunity to add another city in there.

Everything else is where the pace seems to be forced. You have to get your killswitch turned off, you you head straight to Hong Kong, you have to stop the plague shipment, so you head right back to New York. This is possibly a place to stop and take a breather. You don't necessarily have to go see Everett right away. A cure is not necessary right away, Ambrosia will suffice in the short term. But, Ambrosia is, at best, difficult to produce without a UC. Difficult, but apparently not impossible because Vandenberg doesn't have a functioning UC and yet they've got some ambrosia lying around. If Daedalus were aware of that then perhaps he wouldn't send you after Everett right away and you could fit in something between the super-freighter and Paris.

This would be an obvious place to fit in the DC missions because it is when you arrive in Paris that the coup is mentioned. Perhaps you could also stop by Austin/LA/the concentration camp, but I doubt that more than one of them would fit. The FEMA concentration camp might make the most sense, it's something that those in Washington would know about and want something done about.

Stopping by London on the way to or from Paris could make a certain amount of sense.

From Paris Everett sends you to X-51, both because he needs their UC and because he needs their computer access to help Daedalus (which fails spectacularly) He's going to need their UC no matter what, but if Daedalus weren't on the verge of failing perhaps he'd send you somewhere else first? Perhaps not. It is worth noting that Everett contacted X-51 just before the attack, one wonders if the attack occurred because Everett contacted them and wouldn't have happened if Everett hadn't done so. Page had known that Savage was in Vandenberg for six months, yet only attacked when JC came to town. The question then becomes, where else would Everett send JC, and why? Might he send JC to some of the locations of the other missions (you could stop at Siberia on the way to Vandenberg.) A couple of points are worth making here. One is that the Ocean Lab is right next to LA (about ten miles apparently) so unlike things like Austin, London and Siberia fitting LA in probably doesn't require a giant pause button. I mentioned the difficulty of fitting in location that aren't right next to current location, well LA is right next to them. It just needs a reason why JC would stop by. Another is that we have absolutely no idea why one would want to be swimming around in post quake LA.

And then we get to the whole missile thing. As I've said, that's where I'd try to squeeze the moon in if I were doing this.

Oh, and for a bit of information I continually forget, Vandenberg is a spaceport. (In real life.) That said, it is doubtful, at best, that X-51 would have any spacecraft.

So, and remember this assumes that you've thrown some kind of wrench in MJ12's plans that, among other things, has changed Daedalus' priorities and vulnerability*, it might possibly look something like this:
Leave UNATCO, Hong Kong, New York, Washinton/Mt. Weather, Concentration Camp, Austin, London, Paris, Siberia, Vandenberg/Ocean Lab/LA, The Moon, Area 51.

(Bold means it's from the original.)

And the final Area 51 would probably be a maybe. You could probably rule the world from the moon so it is unclear if you'd really have to come down and deal with Page personally.

And, of course, I'd let you stay at UNATCO, but unless you'd screwed something up (allowed Ada to play a role for example) I'd make that storyline rather short as there isn't much for you to do, MJ12 has the upperhand and the resistance is already down. Your job would essentially be to kick the resistance while it was down, and that wouldn't take very long. (With the possible exception of if you were ordered to kill Everett you'd have to find him first.)

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So, um, what was the question again?

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--
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* One thing that occurred to me either yesterday morning or this morning was to make additional use of Ada. We only know of one AI that are not from the Echelon project in canon Deus Ex, that being The Oracle. The Oracle probably isn't going screw with MJ12 too much, among other things The Oracle is already trying to find out about them in canon Deus Ex and having little luck. Ada represents another AI from outside of that mold and, since she doesn't appear in Deus Ex, we can assign to her basically any motivative or method we might like.

What occurred to me is that if you investigated enough to figure out what Ada was, that might make someone like Daedalus sit up and take notice. Ada could be different enough from what MJ12 is used to that they'd have no defense against her while being similar enough to understand and interface with their systems. The problem would be that the same would be true of MJ12 and Ada (she wouldn't be well prepared for their attacks) which would level the fight, but if Ada got advanced warning from someone who did know their way around Echelon systems, like say Daedalus, then Ada could potentially be prepared fro them while they were unprepared for her, and then she could be the monkey wrench (and, since Ada would be your ally in this sinareo, going to the moon would likely morph into a rescue mission.)

There are various things not to like about this idea. One is that Ada is verging on becoming the wizard in "A wizard did it," another is that it would make the majority of the additional content contingent on doing one specific thing that is out of the way and probably unlikely for you to do.

That said, the major monkey wrench of a slowdown is only required if one is going to fit all of the locations into a single playthrough. Fitting in one or two additional missions could be accomplished by much smaller wrenches. (See the previous idea of going to DC because skipping the super-freighter made more time available to you idea.)

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And to show you how long I've been writing this, I'm pretty sure what I'm responding to was the last post in the thread when I started writing.
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by chris the cynic »

gamer0004 wrote:And about the moon base mission: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/16 ... never-was/
It was the international space station. I remembered it being that but I couldn't figure out where I got that idea from so I figured I imagined it and didn't call it that when I talked about Jerry Wildman in this thread.

That's the problem with all the random bits of information out there, they're random. There's nowhere you can look to see, "This is what they said about the space station." I may have to hijack the TNM wiki to use for such a database. (Which will happen right after I fill all of the existing or wanted pages with useful accurate information. Which should happen any time now. Any time now.)
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by Dragon »

Morpheus wrote:Strange, still works for me, try this: http://www725.megaupload.com/files/34ff ... Deusex.mpg
I get always this error:

Code: Select all

The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable. Please try again later.
I usually get this error only on missing files.
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by Morpheus »

Here is the video on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSDxeFaggYU
Last edited by Morpheus on Mon May 16, 2011 9:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Deus Ex before final version

Post by nerdenstein »

Bloody hell. :? :lol:
Informative Chris! You should write a book or something.

Actually, scrap that. A novelization of Deus Ex is one thing but writing an A-Z documentary type book could prove even more difficult. :P

EDIT: The TNM Wiki does need updating... :lol:
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