Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

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chris the cynic
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Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by chris the cynic »

I know that I tend to focus on details but it may surprise you to know that I also notice the big things in Deus Ex. The NSF for example, it is not lost on me that they exist in Deus Ex. I have also noticed the Illuminati and MJ12 and so forth.

My impression is that while the HR team might not be focusing on the small things, they'll be trying to make the big things fit. This post is based on that assumption, so if that assumption is wrong it would be a good idea to stop reading now.

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I'm not going to play Human Revolution in the near future, but there's something I've been wondering about pretty much since we learned when the game is set and I'd like to hear from people who have played the game on the topic.

One of the things that immediately stood out when we learned Human Revolution would be set in 2027 was that that's not long before 2030 and 2030 is kind of a flashpoint in the Deus Ex timeline. One natural disaster in 2030 set off a chain of events that resulted in the decline of the US, the creation of the original NSF (as in Northwest instead of National) the MJ12-Illuminati split, the takeover of Europe by the conspiracy groups, and more or less everything that leads up to Deus Ex. There is a possibility that the world population dropping to two billion by the end of the 2030s was unrelated, and the India-Pakistan nuclear war might have happened anyway, but for the most part what you see in Deus Ex on a big scale* has roots in 2030.

On the one hand, to a certain extent that makes Human Revolution a relatively "safe" time to have prequel. 2030 is sort of like a reset button that will knock the world off whatever course was set by the player and push everything back in the general direction of disaster. It means that you've got a lot more leeway than you would if the game were set in, say, 2042. On the other hand, putting the game more or less immediately before a reset button seems like it might make the whole thing seem ... "pointless" isn't the right word. AJ might not be able to stop an earthquake from happening three years down the line, but there's all sorts of difference he could potentially make. (If one of the endings were exposing the conspiracies to the world, for example, that would change everything. It definitely wouldn't be pointless.)

I'm not sure what the word I'm looking for here is. It seems like it would be ending Deus Ex with whatever your chosen ending was followed by, “And then in three years an asteroid hit the earth and changed everything.” It certainly would have left me with a bad taste in my mouth unless it was very well done. [Added] And I, personally, am at a total loss as to how to do something like that well. [/Added]

So I'm wondering how they handled that. Not specific details, just in general. Did the ending work for you knowing, as you do, that whatever you do a world altering disaster is looming on the horizon? Did it feel like the player's actions actually made a difference?

So that's what I'm wondering in terms of ending.

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In terms of setting, what I'd like to get people's opinions on stems from more or less the same thing. Before 2030 there's no MJ12-Illuminati rift. Before 2030 there's no NSF. The same can be said of other fundamentals of Deus Ex. It's not just that these things don't exist, it is that the reason they will eventually exist has yet to happen. No one is going to be sitting around saying, "Well in three years I think there's going to be an earthquake and that seeing the Illiuminati/US's response to that is going to make me want to take up arms in order to leave the Illuminati/US so I'd better start preparing now." So the game can't really show the roots of any of the conflicts we see in Deus Ex. Which means that the game can't employ those conflicts.

In fact, given the time they picked, there shouldn't be a lot of Deus Ex style conflict at all, MJ12 is part of the Illuminati, the Illuminati are allies of the Templars, and that should basically cover everyone on the conspiracy front. Terrorists at the time should largely be on the Illuminati's payroll. Other than the Triads, the groups you saw in Deus Ex should be either nonexistent or all on on the same side.

That's an interesting time to set a game, to say the least.

It's not that there's no inherent conflict in a world where the secret masters are all in agreement and the revolutionaries work for the secret masters. I'm sure that there's more than enough conflict justify a game**, multiple games in fact, but the conflict can't be remotely like that in Deus Ex***. In fact, if anything you should probably get more a Dinner at Deviant's Palace vibe where you find out that pretty much all sides are the same and you're basically on your own if you want to fight against them. (Spoiler alert for Dinner at Deviant's Palace, by the way.)

Obviously that's a different direction for a Deus Ex game, and I want to know how people playing Human Revolution think it was handled. Did it work well?

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* Big scale is in terms of groups rather than, say, technology or individuals. The Illuminati, MJ12, the NSF, the US, NATO, the entire continent of Europe, the Russo-Mexican alliance, so on. Obviously there's a lot of other set up that happens elsewhere. The nano augmentation project, for example, started before the birth of Paul, so sometime before 2018, with invasive experiments on humans (clones of Paul) starting in 2028, JC being born the year after that, and the kinks not worked out until 2049. That's a pretty major part of Deus Ex that does not remotely have roots in 2030. But while it's major, and necessary and important and I would argue that it shouldn't be fucked with, it is not on the same scale as something like the existence of the NSF.

A lot of people went through Deus Ex without ever really picking up on the details of nano augmentation and such. Hell, based on what some people were saying on the Human Revolution boards a while back some people went through Deus Ex without ever noticing there were mechs in it. I'd like to think**** that no one went through Deus Ex without noticing that the NSF existed or that the Illuminati and MJ12 had had a falling out. That's what I mean by broad strokes and big scale here. You can tell the general story of history of the 21st century in Deus Ex without ever mentioning the individuals involved or the forms of augmentation, but you kind of have to mention the organizations that shaped that history. Most of the organizations that appear in Deus Ex were shaped in large part by what happened in 2030. (Though there are exceptions. For example X-51, which wouldn't be created for 21 more years, could potentially have been made for much the same reason anyway and triads already exist today.)

** The Illuminati doesn't rule the world so they're probably going to rub up against governments and corporations they don't control, as just one example. Corporate security is a pretty logical place to start a protagonist. Though, obviously, not remotely the only option. Anyway, thumbs up to the HR team for thinking that one through.

*** Unless the game has the major conflict being the result of a hitherto unheard of group who subsequently disappears into complete obscurity, which is certainly possible given a quarter century between the games. If that is the case never mind. Though in that case all of the credit I was giving them for trying something new and different would be naively misplaced.

**** Earlier today I learned that someone somehow managed to make it to their first year of university without ever learning who Hitler was. There was much debate on how this was possible, no satisfactory conclusion was reached. Still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that that is possible. Anyway, given that something like that can happen, I suppose I have to accept the possibility that someone could theoretically play Deus Ex without noticing, say, that the Illuminati and MJ12 aren't on the same side.

[Edited because using "the game" to refer to two different games might be confusing.]
Last edited by chris the cynic on Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by Taskeen »

I read everything in HR to find all the little tidbits. There is a daily news paper you can read about certain events, and while I was doing a couple missions, I read about the New Sons of Freedom (the predecessor of New Secessionist Forces) for the first time, where a Joshua Korbin car bombs the White House. There are other e-books and things that talk about certain states likely ceceding, such as the north west and texas. And if you can find it, there is a 'research' book of sorts that talks about the UN creating an international anti-terrorism force (UNATCO), kind of like that one think tank research paper made by bush and his criminal cronies that outlined exactly what they were going to do.
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by Jaedar »

As a slight spoiler, there is an ending that entails telling the world about the illuminati

But yeah, the story isn't "find out the conspiracy and save the world", its more akin to "avenge your dead ex-girlfriend and in doing so accidentally uncover the conspiracy"

Aside from a reference to smashthestate, I can't think of anything in the game that says NSF in the making. Might have missed it though.
chris the cynic wrote: So I'm wondering how they handled that. Not specific details, just in general. Did the ending work for you knowing, as you do, that whatever you do a world altering disaster is looming on the horizon? Did it feel like the player's actions actually made a difference?
The endings are handled in a really poor way. They say little about what actually happen afterwards(at least the ones I checked). So yeah, I can't really say I feel like Jensen made a difference.
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by nerdenstein »

Spoilers Below if you didn't already assume that by the thread title. :P
As far as I can tell, I don't think the endings made any impact what so ever. Organisations blaming each other for what happened during the finale. The ending where Jenson tries to expose the Illuminati by using Hugh Darrows recording could have just been ignored by the general population I guess if we're trying to make the endings fit with Deus Ex 1.

The West coast falling into the ocean in mentioned a couple of time but its nothing to do with the main story.
Also, several countries wanting to leave the UN was mentioned I think.

There was no mention of the Illuminati-MJ12 Split. Morgan Everett and Beth DuClare are mentioned briefly. Morgan Everett is the head of Picus Network and Beth is the head of the World Health Organisation I think, as mentioned by Eliza.

Cure for AIDS is mentioned in a Newspaper.

The New Sons of Freedom are mentioned in the game. They have a larger role in the Spin Off book to HR which I felt had more too do with the Original Deus Ex game than Human Revolution did. I'd recommend you read that Chris. It's call 'The Icarus Effect'.
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by bobby 55 »

Yeah, Human Revolution is a "chronological" prequel. The story, as the other guys have alluded to, is more about corporate conspiracies, hunting down some bad dudes, and the conflict between the biotically enhanced and the humanity purists. The only mechs (erm...ones I'd call as such anyway) I've seen are in the boss fights. The regular people have enhancements, and I think it would be grossly unfair, and not a little misleading, to call them mechs. The endings are more to do with the Human Revolution story than a DX tie-in.. apart from the opening and closing cinematics that are * ending spoiler* Bob Page related.
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by nerdenstein »

Yeah, I prefer to think of Human Revolution as a Deus Ex spin off rather than an actual Prequel.
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by bobby 55 »

nerdenstein wrote:Yeah, I prefer to think of Human Revolution as a Deus Ex spin off rather than an actual Prequel.
That's well said sir.

It's an excellent game (imo) despite it's imperfections.
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by nerdenstein »

It's a brilliant game, don't get me wrong! :)
I found the gameplay very well done. The stealth side was good and the combat was pretty good. A little difficult at times too. :giggle:
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by chris the cynic »

In the interests of clarity I'm going to rewrite this entire post, but I'm short on time and tired, so it might not end up being all that clear.

I think some people misunderstood what I was asking about. I wasn't asking if there was mention of the NSF. I knew there shouldn't be. The same goes for the MJ12-Illuminati split. I wasn't asking, "Is this mentioned?" I was saying, "Since this hasn't happened yet..."

So, sorry for the miscommunication there.

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My point in bringing those two things up wasn't to ask if they were referenced, that would be like asking, "Are the developers of Human Revolution complete idiots?" in that it would be rude, almost certainly to be answered with the word, "No," and not in any way worthy of a thread at these forums.

My point was to ask, given that these things can't (or at least really, really shouldn't) be in the game, that pretty much means that it's got to be set "in a world where the secret masters are all in agreement and the revolutionaries work for the secret masters" which is something completely different from Deus Ex, so it can't be like Deus Ex storywise. That means it's on new territory. I was wondering how you thought that worked. (And by that I mean in isolation, when you think of it separately from things like gameplay.) It looks like the answer I got was that you thought it worked well.

On a sidenote, I don't really distinguish between prequels and spinnoffs set before the thing they are spinoffs of. If you look at my thread about various possible Deus Ex prequels, you'll notice that most of them could accurately be called spinoffs as well.

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The other point was to ask about how you thought the ending worked knowing that a world altering event you can do nothing about lurks right on the horizon. The impression I'm getting on that front is somewhat mixed. Based on what has been said it seems like the game might be narrow enough in scope that that kind of thing doesn't matter.

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@ nerdenstein

Are these things mentioned in the (playable portion of the) game or an epilogue? I wasn't completely sure based on what you said.

If they're mentioned in an epilogue then I didn't expect that but there's certainly nothing wrong with that and all is good and whatnot. If they're mentioned in the game I ... Um ... how do I say this? Earthquakes and major medical breakthroughs aren't things you accurately predict three years in advance of their eventual occurance. If they're mentioned in the game that's just weird.
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by bobby 55 »

Chris, there wasn't any mention of forthcoming disasters that I recall except for this: On a computer there was mention of the various nasty epidemics; SARS, Swine Flu and such, and it had an apended warning that a worse pandemic was coming. They never mentioned the Grey Death by name though. The games endings didn't mention any forthcoming disasters that I recall. I've been told the endings are posted on Youtube if you want to check them out. I can't guarantee that they'll make sense in isolation.
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

Slightly off topic:

I found the stock footage endings to be completely an utterly distasteful to be honest, they had no right to turn Deus Ex into a political statement about the past and present. Keep it in the future.. then that way no one gets offended. I think George Orwell did this best when rather than specifically say "this is what the west would be like under facism" he said "this is what the west would be like under facism IN THE FUTURE". The context is important, and I feel they did fuck it up with those poorly done, distasteful endings. What Jensen was saying was great and open to philosophical discussion, but the imagery used was un-acceptable and hits too close to home given the present situation in the world. Its also hypocritical of them to use images of the GFC given what Square opportunistically did. The arguements in general came off as one big fallacy because of the imagery.

Now back on topic:

I know the canon states that MJ12 was Page's doing, but historically they've always existed. I would've prefered it more if there was a tie between MJ12, sarif, page and that asian bitch (who shouldn't in my eyes had been in the illuminati-- this is like as if you let Maggie Chow into the illuminati.. she was MJ12.. keep them MJ12.)

The delivery that the illuminati exists was really badly done, Jensen just goes "you're serious?.... oh you are.. OKAI I'LL PLAY ALONG!" and then with Darrow same deal. At least JC actually went "You know.. I don't appreciate that conspiracy theorist crap" "Oh but JC its not crap.. its true" "what... .... um.." *que long explanation by Tracer Tong* Some kinda shock at the idea that these people have dictated the world for centuries would've helped.

It also makes Jensen's choice at the end a bit sillier because he doesn't exactly know anything about the illuminati, so why would he broadcast Darrow's confession? in fact Deus Ex 1 made it sound more like we were better off with the Illuminati (as in, the acknowledgement that if you changed things too much, the entire system would collapse, the old ways are the best ways). Yet we see none of that in Jensen's arguments.

I agreed with Sarif's ending the most, that given how much we've accomplished as human beings, if we keep going, Humanity has the potential to become the gods we were meant to be. And jensen even acknowledges the risks we take through doing that.

If you have the chance to save people's lives and give them immortality then it is a far better thing than to let them die.. naturally though people would want to control the technology to dictate who lives and who dies, and some would even opt out because of their faith. This is why you always have the potential for a Class Struggle between Humans and Immortals. I feel they at least got that somewhat right, but it could've been handled a bit better (like giving us the OPTION to be Auged or Not).
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by Jonas »

I'm sorry but I just have to say there is an NSF reference, but it doesn't stand for Northwest Secessionist Forces (yet?). It stands for... New Something Front, or similar, I don't really remember. Also in reference to Nerdenstein mentioning that Beth DuClare is mentioned - they accidentally call her Nicolette instead of Beth :P
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by chris the cynic »

Mr_Cyberpunk wrote: I think George Orwell did this best when rather than specifically say "this is what the west would be like under facism" he said "this is what the west would be like under facism IN THE FUTURE". The context is important, and I feel they did fuck it up with those poorly done, distasteful endings.
It is worth remembering that George Orwell is open to misinterpretation as well. A lot of people don't get Orwell (for example the people in my country with giant signs saying, "Orwell was Right!" are probably unaware that he was a socialist.) Of course some of that is because Orwell never expected his works to last this long, so he didn't try to make them accessible to people outside of his own cultural context.
I know the canon states that MJ12 was Page's doing
Um ... no. Canon is that MJ12 was the Illuminati's doing (probably some time in the vicinity of the 1950s if you trust the continuity bible) Page just made it independent. In canon MJ12 existed before Page was even born, it just happened to be a branch of the Illuminati.
in fact Deus Ex 1 made it sound more like we were better off with the Illuminati (as in, the acknowledgement that if you changed things too much, the entire system would collapse, the old ways are the best ways).
Speak for yourself. I choose the Helios ending.

I originally went on about this in the post above, but when I rewrote I decided to stay more on topic, I'll try to keep this short for the same reason.

The reason the endings in Deus Ex are so well integrated into the story is that Deus Ex is shaped by four competing interests. You've got MJ12 on one side, which doesn't offer you an ending. On the other side you've got three groups whose only real agreement is that they don't want MJ12 in charge. (Yes, I just called Daedalus/Helios a group. It is possible for a group to be composed of a single entity. Deal with it.)

The Illuminati don't have any problem with a conspiracy taking over the world, they just think that MJ12 happens to be the wrong one. You start getting the explicit groundwork for their ending ass soon as you meet members of the Illuminati, but an argument might be made that you get the philosophical underpinnings from the beginning because the Illuminati is essentially presented as MJ12 done right.

The resistance doesn't want anyone to rule the world. Talk to the guy in UNATCO's interrogation cell (the one that Simons doesn't interrogate who you can get more than barks from) and you'll be left with the impression that what the NSF is fighting for is basically an end to all government. You know from the beginning that the resistance wants local rule, talk to Paul outside of the 747 and he'll tell you exactly how local. New York is too far away from New Jersey to make decisions for it he says. In other words, if the only thing separating point A from point B is a bridge, they're too far apart to be ruled by the same people. A return to city states is pretty much what they're after, and by the time Tong suggests it you've been exposed to the philosophy behind the idea for more or less the whole game.

The Helios ending is probably the one that you get the least set up for. Daedalus never really says what his endgame is, he just lets you know that he has a plan, it requires you to be alive, and please will you stop these bastards from making the plague? Obviously if you should bump into Morpheus you'll get the philosophical basis in concentrated form. Helios likewise doesn't tell you how he wants things to end until, well, just before things end. The only time he tells you what he's after is when it's time for you to play your role.

Anyone could see that if not for being united by a common enemy, these groups would be at each other's throats. Nicolette points out that the resistance would fight a successful Illuminati just as much as they fight MJ12, JC is the one to point out that the Illuminati and Daedalus aren't exactly natural allies. They might have wanted the same thing in the midgame, but when pieces started being removed from the board and the endgame started they had to go their separate ways because they all defined victory in mutually exclusive ways.

The choices you have are integrated into the plot and philosophy of the game long before you know you'll be given a choice. I think part of the reason that it works is because your goal is poorly defined. JC knows what he wants to not happen, he doesn't want MJ12 to win, but he doesn't have a clear objective for what he does want to happen. All three endings result in not-MJ12 being in charge, so all three, different as they are, meet the initial poorly defined goal. Also, since you've been working with all three groups since you met Dowd, you've got a good basis on which to make your decision, it's possible you've already made it well ahead of time. (E.g. If you've agreed with the NSF the whole time and only see the Illuminati and the AIs as allies of convenience then it's not much of a choice, you've been working towards the Tong Ending all along.)

Crap. That was supposed to be the short. Sorry.

When I originally wrote and then deleted something like this it was to ask whether the HR endings are as well integrated. I'm getting the impression you think they're not.
(like giving us the OPTION to be Auged or Not).
Yeah, if I were to make a mech game I'd do that for sure. But in their defense, it would require a lot more work. To really stay true to the idea of anti mech discrimination you'd have to make two of almost every interaction. Even when someone used exactly the same words (which strictly speaking, they probably shouldn't), they shouldn't say them in the same way (this is true even if they're really really trying not to be bigots, in fact even more so in that case). It would be great from a seeing the consequences of your choices perspective (since the consequences of that one choice would pervade the social interactions big and small), but a pain in the ass to make.

(Which is probably the same reason they don't let you play as Alicia Jensen trying to avenge her ex girlfriend. Needing to record things twice, whether with the same voice actor or a different one, isn't fun.)
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by nerdenstein »

Jonas wrote:I'm sorry but I just have to say there is an NSF reference, but it doesn't stand for Northwest Secessionist Forces (yet?). It stands for... New Something Front, or similar, I don't really remember. Also in reference to Nerdenstein mentioning that Beth DuClare is mentioned - they accidentally call her Nicolette instead of Beth :P
New Sons Of Freedom? Fuck, I can't find where I've put the book but both Protagonists of the Icarus Effect meet Juan Lebedev whom created the New Sons Of Freedom to go against the Illuminati and The Tyrants (The Tyrants are the Three Bosses in HR that we know nothing about unless you read the book*). If I knew what I did with my copy of the book, I could tell you more but essentally, they were what came before the NSF but have essentally, the same goals. I guess after the MJ12-Illuminati breakup; Juan decided that the Illuminati was better than what MJ12 were doing.

I thought they called her Elizabeth Duclare? I could be wrong and I can't go back and check because it was towards the end of the game when she was mentioned by Eliza after the BioChip malfunction.
Was I correct in saying she was the head of some Health Organisation though? I should write things down because I forget otherwise.

@Chris; The article that mentioned the cure for AIDS was, I think, something about new technology to do with Nano-Technology that could eventually lead to a cure for AIDS.
As for the earthquake, I can't remember where that was mentioned. I think I remember someone saying, 'The West Coast is gonna fall into the ocean in the next few years mark my words.' Anyone clarify I'm not making things up in my head? :P
Definately gonna have to play it again in the near future.

*The Tyrants play a large role in The Icarus Effect because one of the Protagonists is a member of them. There are infact Six members during the inital attack on Serif; Namir, Fedorova, Barrett, Gunther Hermann, a guy called Scott Hardesty and the Protagonist; Ben Saxon.
Because of this larger role, we also discover what Namir ment by his dying words 'We never get back the things we love.' I won't spoil it but because I read the book before the game came out, I was disappointed by how little The Tyrants are actually involved in HR (They're not even mentioned by name as Jonas mentioned in his Review article).

EDIT: Shortly after posting this I saw this: http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/08/31/deus- ... -revealed/
With a link to this: http://www.13311tower.com/

On that second link, it had numourous cryptic messages. One of them says BSAX081-C... Ben Saxon the guy from the Icarus Effect who joined the Tyrants shortly after his Belltower Squad were all killed my a mysterious Drone... I might be the only one to have read it on this forum so am the only one excited but by the time of the game, only Barrett, Namir and Fedorova were still in the Tyrants. Ben Saxon defected and helped the New Sons Of Freedom and in the process, killed Hardesty.
This could mean that, if a DLC is released, it could involve the New Sons. :D
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Re: Looking for general impressions on HR's Setting/Endings

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

Um ... no. Canon is that MJ12 was the Illuminati's doing (probably some time in the vicinity of the 1950s if you trust the continuity bible) Page just made it independent. In canon MJ12 existed before Page was even born, it just happened to be a branch of the Illuminati.
^this is what I initially thought as well, but a lot of Deus Ex 3 sites tell it otherwise stating that MJ12 shouldn't exist at this point.

My opinion, it should've and all the augmentation companies should've been involved with it- mainly because they already deal with Versalife anyway (Which at this point has some kind of monopoly as I understand on the medicine treatments for augmentations).

I just felt it was odd that MJ12 was left out of the story, despite that there is an obvious MJ12 sculpture in the middle of one of the levels.. yet we're told this is an Illuminati base..!? I'm bloody confused!
The choices you have are integrated into the plot and philosophy of the game long before you know you'll be given a choice.
this is a good point. But Darrow in Deus Ex 3 you're not exposed to at all, he's just kinda thrown in there at the end and we're never given a good explanation to his involvement, why he's using humans in a giant computer (which IMO was pretty stupid.. why does the computer need humans?!.. ITS A FUCKING COMPUTER!.. I get the relationship between JC and Helios, JC was able to be the physical representation of Helios.. (much in the same way Christ is the physical representation of God) but the giant computer thingy has multiple humans connected to it.. so the semiotics don't make any damn sense other than, she's the devil, and those people are suffering for shits and giggles.)

Darrow's justifications just seem stupid.
Taggart and Sarif seem to have better ideologies since you're exposed to them throughout the game (the default wants you to side with Taggart but if you go the pro-Aug route Sarif is the best choice, I went pro-Aug because I was sick of Jensen being a whiny little emo fuck "I DUDN'T ASKP FUR DIZ" yeah shut up, you're a cyborg now.. live with it you fuck. Glad they at least gave us that option to make him cool.)
As for Eliza's ending, well she's only in the game for a very short period, and her ideology is simply "I GIVE UP", which is kinda dumb as well. I can see they were going for the Illuminati style ending where your choice is simply "Don't change anything, old ways are the best ways" but the human sacrifice thing was a bit stupid lol, I'd rather they let us take sides with that Illuminati bitch (or kill her, and take her place in the Illuminati)- that would've made more sense imo, killing yourself was a shitty cop-out ending.

ideally the Illuminati shouldn't have been portrayed as the bad guys in this game. MJ12 should've been as was the case with the first game.
Last edited by Mr_Cyberpunk on Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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