Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Dedicated to the discussion of OTP and Deus Ex in general.

Moderators: Master_Kale, TNM Team

ikaricrime
Thug
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:19 pm

Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by ikaricrime »

Image

The CIA has officially acknowledged the secret US test site known as Area 51, in a newly unclassified internal history of the U-2 spy plane programme. reported by BBC news.

In my own words... they developed a spy plane, the U-2 which was used to spy on the Soviet Union during the Cold War! It's still being flown by the US Air Force!

... and maybe it's not the end of what we can hear about Area 51 and it's just the beginning!
G-Flex
Silhouette
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:16 pm

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by G-Flex »

So... what, you think that Area 51 and stealth airplanes, and conspiracies surrounding them, are new or something? I don't get it.
User avatar
Jonas
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
Posts: 14224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Hafnia

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by Jonas »

Oldest news. Ever.

Seriously ;)
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
Cybernetic pig
Illuminati
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by Cybernetic pig »

So, what's in it for the CIA MJ12 to release this information? :)

-PR repair after the NSA scandal? "Some of your secrets for ours, fair trade?" ;)
-To make it seem as if they have come clean to throw people off the trail of what really goes on there?
-To spite those who have made a living writing/making claims about little green men/alien craft testing when all that is in fact false?

Less likely:

-Because they have nothing better to do than declassify military secrets?/
-Or because the public "deserve to know" after all the incorrect UFO/alien allegations?

Pick one or contribute more possibilities ;)
bobby 55
Illuminati
Posts: 6354
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:15 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by bobby 55 »

Cybernetic pig wrote:So, what's in it for the CIA MJ12 to release this information? :)


Or because the public "deserve to know" after all the incorrect UFO allegations?

Pick one or contribute more possibilities ;)
VTOL and Stealth developing and testing?

I don't know that I'd believe stories from someone who'd tell them for a beer anyway. :P
Growing old is inevitable.......Growing up is optional
~DJ~
UNATCO
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:15 pm

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by ~DJ~ »

Is it just me or wasn't this information already.. somewhat public and/or declassified?
I remember knowing that it was a test site for aircrafts such as U-2, etc, or a nuclear based aircraft as well?

How is this being declassified, and why does it even have the name Area 51, I mean, if it's just being declassified then.. we already knew the name as well?

sorry for sounding stupid but that's what's top on my head :mrgreen:
Cybernetic pig
Illuminati
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by Cybernetic pig »

I fucking hate NYC bar/Underworld. Such a terribly-designed map. It's not to scale in the slightest, take the area of the map and copy n paste it in NYC streets and it would go from one side of the map to the other. I hate those damn zig-zag corridors implemented for what I assume is to hide what's behind you after coming from a loading screen, and I hate the general design; just simple blocks, lack of detail, nonsensical layout, urgh. It could have easily been pretty detailed since it doesn't come close to pushing unreal.

I want to renovate it but it would involve going over 6 maps with lots of tedious copy pasting, and as am a few days from release I'm not prepared to do that. Fuck that shitty map. Worst in the game.
User avatar
Jonas
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
Posts: 14224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Hafnia

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by Jonas »

Cybernetic pig wrote:It could have easily been pretty detailed since it doesn't come close to pushing unreal.
Uh I don't have any particular love for the Underworld Bar, but I remind you that Deus Ex was considered extremely poorly optimised when it came out in 2000, and ran quite horrendously on most PCs. I remember specifically buying a new computer so I could play the game after it failed to run above 5 FPS on my mom's PC.

Furthermore, "more details" have other costs beyond performance concerns. For one, when you're building an FPS with 30-40 hours of gameplay and you only have a handful of level designers on your team who double as environment artists, there's a limit to how much time you can spend cramming details into each map.

And as a final note, there's a hella lot of levels in Deus Ex that don't fit within the confines of their supposed exteriors. Indeed the same is very much the case for The Nameless Mod. Does it really matter that much? Game environments tend to need to be a fair bit bigger than in real life, as they will otherwise feel a bit claustrophobic (not sure why), and making all the outsides of the buildings correspondingly huge doesn't always look right.
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
Cybernetic pig
Illuminati
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Jonas wrote: Uh I don't have any particular love for the Underworld Bar, but I remind you that Deus Ex was considered extremely poorly optimised when it came out in 2000, and ran quite horrendously on most PCs. I remember specifically buying a new computer so I could play the game after it failed to run above 5 FPS on my mom's PC.
Compare Underworld tavern to the Lucky Money. Lucky money has a good 40 NPCs minimum, a fair amount of detail, and a decent layout, about double the size of NYC tavern also.

You're making excuses for the level designer of NYC Tavern.
Furthermore, "more details" have other costs beyond performance concerns. For one, when you're building an FPS with 30-40 hours of gameplay and you only have a handful of level designers on your team who double as environment artists, there's a limit to how much time you can spend cramming details into each map.
There was about 6 level designers for DX, and 75+ maps. 12.5 maps each if we ignore that that is not how the work was distributed. You're right, I don't know how the DX team operated so I should be more considerate, but I think the level designer of Tavern himself would agree it could have been better.

You cannot deny the unmistakable quality difference between some of the maps, especially the Tavern. I love DX's level design, but whoever worked on the Tavern was getting a little burnt out perhaps, or just was the odd one out when it comes to level design.
Jonas wrote: And as a final note, there's a hella lot of levels in Deus Ex that don't fit within the confines of their supposed exteriors. Indeed the same is very much the case for The Nameless Mod. Does it really matter that much?
Yes and no. There is a limit to how much you can get away with, I think. Indeed it is not terribly important, but it is a valid complaint, especially since there is nothing in parts of the damn bar level, just long corridors with nothingness.
User avatar
Jonas
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
Posts: 14224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Hafnia

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by Jonas »

Cybernetic pig wrote:Compare Underworld tavern to the Lucky Money. Lucky money has a good 40 NPCs minimum, a fair amount of detail, and a decent layout, about double the size of NYC tavern also.
Point taken.
There was about 6 level designers for DX, and 75+ maps. 12.5 maps each if we ignore that that is not how the work was distributed. You're right, I don't know how the DX team operated so I should be more considerate, but I think the level designer of Tavern himself would agree it could have been better.
12.5 maps per level designer is a ton. Especially as some of those maps are humongous. By comparison, most level designers for TNM managed to produce 2-3 maps each (with the big exceptions being Beeblequix, Phasmatis, and especially ZeroPresence).

I know you can't use modern games as a comparison, but on Clandestine we've got 6 or so missions per designer, and we're a little stressed out :P
You cannot deny the unmistakable quality difference between some of the maps, especially the Tavern. I love DX's level design, but whoever worked on the Tavern was getting a little burnt out perhaps, or just was the odd one out when it comes to level design.
Sure, you're right, it wasn't a great map. Can't remember being very bothered by it back in 2000, but then I was easily impressed back then.
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
Cybernetic pig
Illuminati
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by Cybernetic pig »

12.5 maps per level designer is a ton. Especially as some of those maps are humongous.
Yeah, is quite impressive. I love that DX is a fairly long game.
I know you can't use modern games as a comparison, but on Clandestine we've got 6 or so missions per designer, and we're a little stressed out :P
Need another employee? I'm only half serious; I am not knowledgeable in Unity so I probably wouldn't be suitable unless you don't mind me learning on the job, which I assume you most definitely would mind. I'm a fast learner, and then double that learning rate because I need the dough :). Maybe I should look into getting skilled with Unity, and then ask again :)
but then I was easily impressed back then.
Weren't we all. It was Deus Ex that set a big standard for most of us to begin with, and I am looking forward to Logic Artist's first Immersive Sim, one day :)
User avatar
Jonas
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
Posts: 14224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Hafnia

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by Jonas »

Cybernetic pig wrote:Need another employee?
Sure we need lots of employees, but we can't afford to hire any more ;)
Weren't we all. It was Deus Ex that set a big standard for most of us to begin with, and I am looking forward to Logic Artist's first Immersive Sim, one day :)
Well I'd love to make one, but it would not be with the Unity engine. It would take some serious programmer magic to make a game like Deus Ex happen in Unity, with modern visuals.
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
Cybernetic pig
Illuminati
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Jonas wrote: Well I'd love to make one, but it would not be with the Unity engine. It would take some serious programmer magic to make a game like Deus Ex happen in Unity, with modern visuals.
Of course Unity is not preferable at all, but I'd still take it because Immersive Sim.
User avatar
Jonas
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
Posts: 14224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Hafnia

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by Jonas »

Problem is it wouldn't be that immersive with Unity ;)

First level for Clandestine, we made it really big and fairly open - actually we just picked the government district in Copenhagen and modelled 50% of it true-to-life. Putting aside the expected gameplay problems (which are all fixable), the engine just can't handle a level that large. You can't even bake the lights without crashing the editor (hopefully that'll be fixed in Unity 5). So now we're splitting it up into two scenes instead of having it all in one, and it'll be a bit more linear as a result (upshot is it'll have substantially more focused gameplay - less Deus Ex's Liberty Island, more Human Revolution's FEMA base).
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
User avatar
gamer0004
Illuminati
Posts: 1215
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:53 pm

Re: Still Think Jock Is a Madman After the Chat at NY Bar...

Post by gamer0004 »

That's something I've been wondering about - why are there no indie devs making games like DX? Cut the VA, don't make the graphics too fancy, but focus on systems and large maps. A team of unpaid people were able to make TNM, surely using a modern engine, a team of more or less professional devs could make something like DX. But apparently not. Is that everything to do with size of the maps? Or would making a game like DX require an insane amount of programming what with all the systems required in such a game?
Post Reply