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Deus Ex: Mankind Divided 
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MJ12
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
I'd say TNM is more canon than this or HR.


Sun May 10, 2015 8:02 pm
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Just pretend it's an alternate timeline and enjoy the damn game on its own merits ;)

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Mon May 25, 2015 5:12 pm
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Jonas wrote:
Just pretend it's an alternate timeline and enjoy the damn game on its own merits ;)

You mean complain about the fact that it's a popamole shooter with a terribly designed xp system, and small, arena-based map design that even if you disregard all the fluff, still has very little actual relation to a DX game? ;)

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Mon May 25, 2015 6:59 pm
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
SHOTS FIRED

Also, agreed. It just... blends everything from Deus Ex together. Notable examples that I can think of are the storyline and the stealth.
In Human Revolution, they boiled down the conspiracy theories to one - the Illuminati, and they don't have any factions. So the overarching story is about the small-scale stuff - H+ vs. non-aug, which is worn out almost immediately because you are already augmented, and it is already known you CHOOSE to use your augs for either good or bad. They are inert tools and nothing more, at least from gameplay perspective. This makes it very... bland.
Also, the Human Revolution stealth is simply "look for the next vent". While this does streamline the stealth, STEALTH IS NOT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE STREAMLINED. Stealth is all about making cautious choices and tip toeing on the edge of the enemies' line of sight, and, yes, being slow. Even if you cut out all of the fluff (a la Dishonored), you should think before you move. More often than not I remember myself going on autopilot, with the same routine of taking cover-guard timing puzzle-vent-rinse-repeat. This even ruined entire sidequests for me, like the DRB quest in Detroit.
I felt that Human Revolution took inspiration from Deus Ex, but it wasn't it. It's the equivalent of taking a refined 3 course meal and putting it all in a blender. You can still see sparks of the original brilliance, but instead of getting a different flavor in different segment, you get only a uniform, "acceptable" experience.

That being said, The Missing Link. That is the only part of the game that I felt stayed true to Deus Ex. Multiple paths, rewarding exploration, a storyline which hints at conspiracies other than the Illuminati, plus a twist on the CASIE aug system - and it's the only part of the game that's DLC. To be frank, if they only released The Missing Link and tied it's storyline together, I would've ditched Human Revolution altogether. It's just a better, more concise experience, worthy of the Deus Ex name.


Mon May 25, 2015 8:35 pm
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Jaedar wrote:
You mean complain about the fact that it's a popamole shooter with a terribly designed xp system, and small, arena-based map design that even if you disregard all the fluff, still has very little actual relation to a DX game? ;)

Well the XP system certainly was pretty poorly designed, no argument there.

The maps were typically larger than in Deus Ex though. I'm not sure what gave you the opposite impression - probably that they weren't quite as open in their layout, so as better to facilitate streaming, which is obviously necessary because a personal computer couldn't even remotely handle an area with the size and detail level of Detroit or Hengsha if everything were loaded into memory at the same time and all the AI agents in the level had to run on the CPU simultaneously. Your computer would fry.

Other than that, it having less relation to Deus Ex is, in a way, more true to the philosophy of Deus Ex. By making Mankind Divided very similar to Human Revolution, this'll be the first game in the series that offers no substantial redesign. I'm okay with that though, I really liked Human Revolution. It's the only game I've completed three times.

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Wed May 27, 2015 10:15 am
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Jonas wrote:
Well the XP system certainly was pretty poorly designed, no argument there.


A number of gameplay systems were: energy system (no elaboration necessary), aug system (such as augs that weren't even needed as you had it by default, and others that made things worse), glitchy unbalanced takedowns and so on.

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The maps were typically larger than in Deus Ex though.


The two hubs were. Each mission however was typically a series of corridors broken up by elevators for streaming. Even if the areas separated by the elevator loading counts towards a singular map, they are still very disappointing and share little in common with DX.
I don't remember exploration consisting of opening a dozen highlighted desk drawers (more than 12, even) in each room and then moving on to the next room to do the same in DX1.

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Other than that, it having less relation to Deus Ex is, in a way, more true to the philosophy of Deus Ex.


The philosophy of Ion Storm when they decided to sell out, you mean?
The philosophy of Looking Glass was most often to do it bigger and better each time, and Ion Storm's DX was clearly a product of that.
DX:IW, Bioshock and Dishonored is the result of when that ideological family of designers gave up on their progressive prospects and went in the opposite direction.
DX:HR is something else almost entirely, being designed by those with a very different perspective (but still a "we need to make this accessible to sell as many copies as possible" perspective). That is when games don't qualify as art in my eyes; when the artistic vision is utterly compromised by business practices.

Out of interest, has DX:HR overtaken DX1 as your favorite game of all time? I think the game is a bit of a design abomination, but still enjoyable because it copies plenty elements from other great games (namely DX1).
I remember how crushingly disappointed I was when the end credits rolled. "Is that it, that's all you have? That can't be it".
And it wasn't, we got the DX theme, logo and some Page monologue. Hinting the designers had great respect for DX, but everything else really hints at that not being the case:

"Deus Ex was kinda slow"
"it had no memeorable moments".
"Simulation design? Pfft." [paraphrasing]

Along with all the terrible design decisions, of course.

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Wed May 27, 2015 11:33 am
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
There's very little that I agree with in your post. So little that I'm not sure we have enough common ground to even have a worthwhile discussion.

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Out of interest, has DX:HR overtaken DX1 as your favorite game of all time?

No.

I love both games.

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Thu May 28, 2015 12:59 pm
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Fair enough, although I was under the impression that at least half of what was said was factual, perhaps with a bit of unfair exaggeration thrown in.

I just want to understand what makes HR on par with Deus Ex's breed; the System Shocks, the Underworlds etc, in your eyes.
For me it doesn't even come close.
You spent 7 years on a DX1 mod so obviously there's a lot of love there, but saying that you even were not outright dedicated to some concepts found in DX1, such as simulation design. You also haven't played many of the aforementioned genius classics, so some context is missing. (just valid observations, I don't intend to offended. I save that for the RPGRetardex).
You really get a sense of just how "before their time", intelligent, progressive and uncompromising these devs used to be, up until DX:IW onward, if you play said classics. There's so much potential in that style of design that it is extremely disappointing the design evolution & uncompromising principles ended at Deus Ex.

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Thu May 28, 2015 1:23 pm
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Jonas wrote:
The maps were typically larger than in Deus Ex though. I'm not sure what gave you the opposite impression - probably that they weren't quite as open in their layout, so as better to facilitate streaming, which is obviously necessary because a personal computer couldn't even remotely handle an area with the size and detail level of Detroit or Hengsha if everything were loaded into memory at the same time and all the AI agents in the level had to run on the CPU simultaneously. Your computer would fry.

Poor punctuation on my part. What I meant (and what Pig pointed out) is that the non-hub maps are often a succession of small arenas. They might very well be technically larger than the ones in DX though. And I am aware of the technical reasons for why the hubs are laid out as they are (I blame consoles and putting pwetty graphics above good gameplay).

What it comes down to for me, is that most deus ex maps are circular, or otherwise allow a non-linear approach to the objectives. Liberty isle is a big circle, with objective in the top middle, and you can enter from bottom or in the middle. The harbor base has a big warehouse with a boat you have to get to, but the warehouse has at least two entrances, and before you get there there are 2 big hangers you can enter or skip by just walking on the sides. Additionally there are a couple of small buildings you can explore, not to mention the vast underground area providing an entirely different route.

The only map I remember in HR having anything close to that is the police station (and maybe the approach to the booby trapped warehouse?), the rest are a succession of small, closed in arenas. Sure, each arena typically connects to the next in two or three ways, but at the end of the day, you have to go through all arenas to win. And the entrances are usually like 3 seconds of walking/climbing away from each other.
Jonas wrote:
I'm okay with that though, I really liked Human Revolution. It's the only game I've completed three times.

Interesting.

I've only beaten HR once. I tried to replay it once, but I quit after a few hours because I just wasn't having any fun at all. Same when I tried to play the DLC, played for like an hour, quit because I just wasn't having any fun at all. I suspect the only reason I even finished it once was because of momentum.

DX otoh, I've probably beaten 3-6 times vanilla, then once with shifter, once with GMDX. And I'll likely play through it with GMDX again before the year is over. And of course, one should perhaps count the 2-3 times I beat TNM in there somehow.

DX is pretty great is what I'm getting at.

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Fri May 29, 2015 9:20 am
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
I had to play HR more than once (three times), to make sure I saw and found everything. There was more to see and do based on your choices and depth of exploration, but very little. But in that sense it wasn't "it, all they had". DX however just kept on giving for many, many playthroughs. Replayability aside I just don't find it anywhere near as enjoyable, engaging and player-empowering as the first.

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Fri May 29, 2015 1:17 pm
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Jaedar wrote:
(I blame consoles and putting pwetty graphics above good gameplay).

Consoles are always a limitation when they're involved, but it's not the consoles that put graphcis above gameplay - it's the audience. Trust me, the feedback we've been getting on Clandestine makes it abundantly clear that people at large care about graphics much more than they care about anything else. And most of the people who say they don't? They're lying. Maybe they're even lying to themselves.

Quote:
What it comes down to for me, is that most deus ex maps are circular, or otherwise allow a non-linear approach to the objectives. Liberty isle is a big circle, with objective in the top middle, and you can enter from bottom or in the middle. The harbor base has a big warehouse with a boat you have to get to, but the warehouse has at least two entrances, and before you get there there are 2 big hangers you can enter or skip by just walking on the sides. Additionally there are a couple of small buildings you can explore, not to mention the vast underground area providing an entirely different route.

The only map I remember in HR having anything close to that is the police station (and maybe the approach to the booby trapped warehouse?), the rest are a succession of small, closed in arenas. Sure, each arena typically connects to the next in two or three ways, but at the end of the day, you have to go through all arenas to win. And the entrances are usually like 3 seconds of walking/climbing away from each other.

Seems to me you're cherry picking to make the difference between the games sound greater than it is. Some linear examples from DX: Mole people mission via tunnels through Brooklyn Bridge station to LaGuardia; MJ12 base under UNATCO HQ; Ocean Lab. All pretty linear with multiple parallel paths connecting one entrance to one exit. Are there more linear missions in HR? Absolutely, but the hub gameplay took up about as much play time as all of the distinct "missions" combined, so it's not a completely fair comparison.

Anyway, I trust you'll vote with your money and buy Clandestine, where we've chosen to compromise quite a bit on the detail level to achieve rather large and open-ended levels with multiple entrances to each target building ;)

Quote:
DX is pretty great is what I'm getting at.

No argument there.

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Fri May 29, 2015 7:41 pm
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Jonas wrote:
Consoles are always a limitation when they're involved, but it's not the consoles that put graphcis above gameplay - it's the audience. Trust me, the feedback we've been getting on Clandestine makes it abundantly clear that people at large care about graphics much more than they care about anything else. And most of the people who say they don't? They're lying. Maybe they're even lying to themselves.


Absolutely. Same with mods also. New Vision is top dog, not that it doesn't deserve it, but it is the same for most modding communities. The only modding community where gameplay is king is Doom, in my observations so far.
I find that very disappointing as it is gameplay alone that makes games unique as a medium (of course).

Edit: I am guessing minecraft's modding community is primarily gameplay focused as clearly its players don't have an obsession with graphics. It's speculation but considering Minecraft's community is primarily made up of young children I'd say there's some irony there, as the general consensus is the new generations of gamers prioritize graphics and wont play old games as a result.

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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Jonas wrote:
Consoles are always a limitation when they're involved, but it's not the consoles that put graphcis above gameplay - it's the audience. Trust me, the feedback we've been getting on Clandestine makes it abundantly clear that people at large care about graphics much more than they care about anything else. And most of the people who say they don't? They're lying. Maybe they're even lying to themselves.

I can sorta buy that. No one likes looking at muddy textures and rectangular wheels. However, I think a lot of graphics stuff like motion blur, bloom, hdr, depth of field... is not really necessary. And it doesn't take a lot of searching to find indie games that have performed well with simply graphics. First person games have it a bit rougher though, since all textures and models are viewed up close.

At least that's how it is for me. I think new vision and HDTP are great, but I don't see any reason to touch DX12 renderers or ENBseries or stuff like that.

Jonas wrote:
Are there more linear missions in HR? Absolutely, but the hub gameplay took up about as much play time as all of the distinct "missions" combined, so it's not a completely fair comparison.
I remember most of my time in hubs as spent sprinting from A to B. DX certainly has some linear missions. I am not entirely sure I would count the mole tunnels though, they have one or two really linear parts, but there's also the friendly tunnel station where there's a few ways to solve the problems and such.

I have not counted, but I feel linear missions in DX are the exception, but the norm in HR. Anyway, I don't think we can get any further than agreeing to disagree :)

Jonas wrote:
Anyway, I trust you'll vote with your money and buy Clandestine, where we've chosen to compromise quite a bit on the detail level to achieve rather large and open-ended levels with multiple entrances to each target building ;)

I bought it a week or two after it got into early access, but I only played it once so far ;)

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Edit: I am guessing minecraft's modding community is primarily gameplay focused as clearly its players don't have an obsession with graphics. It's speculation but considering Minecraft's community is primarily made up of young children I'd say there's some irony there, as the general consensus is the new generations of gamers prioritize graphics and wont play old games as a result.

I dunno, I think children can appreciate a lot of old stuff. They have a lot of energy (and time) and easily learn new systems. Adults are way more problematic since they have to unlearn their entrenched popamole ways.

Cybernetic pig wrote:
I had to play HR more than once (three times), to make sure I saw and found everything. There was more to see and do based on your choices and depth of exploration, but very little. But in that sense it wasn't "it, all they had". DX however just kept on giving for many, many playthroughs. Replayability aside I just don't find it anywhere near as enjoyable, engaging and player-empowering as the first.

No man, you have to play it seven times before you can decide you don't like it.

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Fri May 29, 2015 9:28 pm
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Jaedar wrote:
I can sorta buy that. No one likes looking at muddy textures and rectangular wheels. However, I think a lot of graphics stuff like motion blur, bloom, hdr, depth of field... is not really necessary. And it doesn't take a lot of searching to find indie games that have performed well with simply graphics. First person games have it a bit rougher though, since all textures and models are viewed up close.

Sure but everything you mention (motion blur, bloom, HDR, DOF) is post-processing effects. Those can be turned off, and they're not the reason you can't have giant levels. All those effects are equally as demanding in tiny levels as they are in giant levels, because they're handled after the entire scene has already been rendered.

The real problem unfortunately is the important part: game objects - the part that actually immerses you in the game world. More enemies, smarter enemies, more trash in the streets, more foliage in the parks, more real-time lights with dynamic shadows (that shit is hideously expensive), etc. etc. Your average Deus Ex level has about the same amount of draw calls as your average room in Human Revolution.

Quote:
Anyway, I don't think we can get any further than agreeing to disagree :)

I don't think we're even disagreeing on the facts, really, just on the importance of it. As always, the really heated debates happen between people who only disagree about the details ;)

Quote:
I bought it a week or two after it got into early access, but I only played it once so far ;)

Well! Thank you for your patronage. Next update is due next week (or the week after, depending on how the QA goes, and whether I will finally manage to stop myself from adding new shit to the update). It's going to be... a fucking enormous improvement on version 0.5.

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Fri May 29, 2015 10:09 pm
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Post Re: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Jonas wrote:
Sure but everything you mention (motion blur, bloom, HDR, DOF) is post-processing effects. Those can be turned off, and they're not the reason you can't have giant levels. All those effects are equally as demanding in tiny levels as they are in giant levels, because they're handled after the entire scene has already been rendered.

I'm pretty sure they can't be turned off on consoles. Granted I know very little about the technicalities of this stuff but doesn't post processing effect performance just as much as rendering the scene? I mean, you have to render that stuff every frame, just as the rest.

It would seem to me that the primary issue with large levels would be memory size(regardless of if the level is 1000000m^2 or 100m^2, you're still only drawing the same 1920*1080 pixels? Takes a bit longer to figure out what you need to draw perhaps).

Not to mention stuff like crysis, which was pretty huge and pretty. Although it probably cheated a lot when it came to AI persistence.

As I said though, my knowledge of this stuff is woefully inadequate.

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Sat May 30, 2015 9:22 am
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