Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

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mKaelus
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by mKaelus »

FastGamerr wrote: Well stated, Trasher. How wondrous that merely one or, more definitely, two years ago, the Deus Ex community was mostly safe from the general gamer garbage, represented well in this thread. But sadly, even the greatest of communities will be notably tainted in time, with DX it surprisingly took about 15 years.
Indeed, just look at how many people defend the steam exclusive deal with stuff like "its only 1.39€" or "just stop being poor".
The DX community really went to the dogs.

At least, we can always trust GMDX team to make good mods.

Also, the price of fame?
Are you saying that we don't like stuff like the retarded AI or the lack of different levels because we are jealous?

Jealous of what? A free mod that was only downloaded 97k times on steam with a average playtime of 3hours?
Even my shitty and undersubbed channel on youtube has more views than Revision copies owned.
And I didnt even get free* publicity from square enix. :>
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Made in China »

mKaelus, your attitude is really shitty. You never try to put yourself in the devs' shoes, but you talk like you do and that it's easy.

That being said, criticism of anything is valid, and so is yours. But not elevating yourself above the level of trolls makes the devs treat you like one, even if what you say is valid. I'm not saying you should come up with solutions to their problems, either, but bashing something relentlessly doesn't make your point will not contribute to anything - it'll just make you semi-popular on YouTube.

Regarding my own opinions of the mod, I think I've already stated them - it doesn't really remix the levels as much as it adds to them, which is why it's really hard to look at it as a new experience. I will always favor the original, because if I didn't play it I wouldn't be able to enjoy Revision - and Revision isn't bad for that, it's just that comparing the two side by side you get the feeling of repetition.
The music, by itself, isn't bad. But again, comparing it to Alexander Brandon's masterpieces will always put it in a bad light. It's like any Queen cover - it may be good, but compared to the original it's just flawed.

So I don't think comparing the mod to vanilla Deus Ex is fair. TNM couldn't be compared to Deus Ex either, apart from mechanical changes (which Revision isn't really about). As it stands on its own, it's a pretty faithful recreation, and has good twists on the Deus Ex level design (call it clutter if you want, but that's how modern games are designed - it's never a just a barren hallway). Do I wish it was more different, and they didn't take the original levels as a template? Yes. Is it still a good mod regardless? Yes.
As I've said in my modDB review (which should've been an 8/10 or a 9/10, but I gave it 10/10 to offset the trolls), it's just Deus Ex: Master Quest. Same vistas, same levels with a twist. But it's a new experience which you can enjoy.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by kdawg88 »

I thought the issues raised in the 'vivisection' videos were all valid. I think we should be responding constructively to such critiques instead of attacking people's character.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by kdawg88 »

The most important underlying point of the videos for me was that the given the limitations of any engine, it is the task of the developer to not aim for complete aesthetic similarity to the real world, but rather use the engine to create a visual language that correlates with and highlights the important aspects of the story and the actual game. A degree of realism in these sorts of games is important, but only to the extent that the experience is believable.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by mKaelus »

Made in China wrote:mKaelus, your attitude is really shitty. You never try to put yourself in the devs' shoes, but you talk like you do and that it's easy.

That being said, criticism of anything is valid, and so is yours. But not elevating yourself above the level of trolls makes the devs treat you like one, even if what you say is valid. I'm not saying you should come up with solutions to their problems, either, but bashing something relentlessly doesn't make your point will not contribute to anything - it'll just make you semi-popular on YouTube.
I wouldn't have a shitty attitude if they didn't go name calling me just because they thought I wasn't looking, it really shows you what kind of people they are, throw a stone and hide their hand, because after I re-appeared, no name calling happened, only a frail attempt at calling me stupid by linking a wiki article about modding.

But tell me, when did I bash Revision Relentlessly? Because, and let me repeat it myself, I gave a positive score to revision.
I will be waiting.
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mKaelus
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by mKaelus »

kdawg88 wrote:I thought the issues raised in the 'vivisection' videos were all valid. I think we should be responding constructively to such critiques instead of attacking people's character.
Shh, only positive criticism and name calling allowed.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by FastGamerr »

Made in China wrote:mKaelus, your attitude is really shitty. You never try to put yourself in the devs' shoes, but you talk like you do and that it's easy.

That being said, criticism of anything is valid, and so is yours. But not elevating yourself above the level of trolls makes the devs treat you like one, even if what you say is valid. I'm not saying you should come up with solutions to their problems, either, but bashing something relentlessly doesn't make your point will not contribute to anything - it'll just make you semi-popular on YouTube.

Regarding my own opinions of the mod, I think I've already stated them - it doesn't really remix the levels as much as it adds to them, which is why it's really hard to look at it as a new experience. I will always favor the original, because if I didn't play it I wouldn't be able to enjoy Revision - and Revision isn't bad for that, it's just that comparing the two side by side you get the feeling of repetition.
The music, by itself, isn't bad. But again, comparing it to Alexander Brandon's masterpieces will always put it in a bad light. It's like any Queen cover - it may be good, but compared to the original it's just flawed.

So I don't think comparing the mod to vanilla Deus Ex is fair. TNM couldn't be compared to Deus Ex either, apart from mechanical changes (which Revision isn't really about). As it stands on its own, it's a pretty faithful recreation, and has good twists on the Deus Ex level design (call it clutter if you want, but that's how modern games are designed - it's never a just a barren hallway). Do I wish it was more different, and they didn't take the original levels as a template? Yes. Is it still a good mod regardless? Yes.
As I've said in my modDB review (which should've been an 8/10 or a 9/10, but I gave it 10/10 to offset the trolls), it's just Deus Ex: Master Quest. Same vistas, same levels with a twist. But it's a new experience which you can enjoy.
Well stated! This post also serves as a nice break between the circus performances, which are now continuing on schedule with our performers from all over the globe.

But alas, I think after all these months/years it's time for me to grab my Naan bread and not-so-clandestinely scoot off to the unmentionable parts.

And good luck with GMDX to CyberP. ;)
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Made in China »

mKaelus wrote:But tell me, when did I bash Revision Relentlessly? Because, and let me repeat it myself, I gave a positive score to revision.
I will be waiting.
Well, starting your review with -50 points for the Steam release, while in the same time they released a standalone installer. You just said "IT'S BAD, THE END", while it really hasn't posed any difficulties for anyone and only brought the mod to a larger audience.
Nitpicking about ORNAGE GLO when (I think) it was more about the DX10 renderer not behaving nicely with UE1.5.
Playing on Realistic, and dying a lot with the added enemy count. I didn't play on Realistic, so I can't say if you're wrong or right - but you should've at least gave the mod the benefit of the doubt and started on Normal. As I've said, everything stands in its own right.
In your tl;dr section of the review, you've compared it to other Deus Ex mods, like they're competing for anything, while in practice they're mutually exclusive. Whenever I play Deus Ex, I don't say to myself "Well, TNM scored higher than Zodiac, so I should play that". Each experience should be judged in its own right, and comparing it to GMDX is really unfair. If they were compatible, you could argue how GMDX complements Revision and vice versa - but that's not the case.

Don't take this the wrong way - I think you've raised some valid issues, mainly about some of the level design feeling too similar to Deus Ex, and also about the "aim for the head" flag that's been set to sparingly. I just think you've raised those issues in a manner that's too harsh, and have focused on some details that were non-issues. You HAVE given the devs some data, but obscured it behind white noise.
I don't think you're ignorant or don't love Deus Ex, but you have to know how to express those opinions not only in a matter that's productive to the future development, otherwise it'll be ignored - if only because it seems too similar to trolls.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by mKaelus »

FastGamerr wrote:circus performances
FastGamerr wrote:And good luck with GMDX to CyberP. ;)
You don't need luck when you can actually make good mods.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by mKaelus »

Made in China wrote:
mKaelus wrote:But tell me, when did I bash Revision Relentlessly? Because, and let me repeat it myself, I gave a positive score to revision.
I will be waiting.
Well, starting your review with -50 points for the Steam release, while in the same time they released a standalone installer. You just said "IT'S BAD, THE END", while it really hasn't posed any difficulties for anyone and only brought the mod to a larger audience.
Nitpicking about ORNAGE GLO when (I think) it was more about the DX10 renderer not behaving nicely with UE1.5.
Playing on Realistic, and dying a lot with the added enemy count. I didn't play on Realistic, so I can't say if you're wrong or right - but you should've at least gave the mod the benefit of the doubt and started on Normal. As I've said, everything stands in its own right.
In your tl;dr section of the review, you've compared it to other Deus Ex mods, like they're competing for anything, while in practice they're mutually exclusive. Whenever I play Deus Ex, I don't say to myself "Well, TNM scored higher than Zodiac, so I should play that". Each experience should be judged in its own right, and comparing it to GMDX is really unfair. If they were compatible, you could argue how GMDX complements Revision and vice versa - but that's not the case.

Don't take this the wrong way - I think you've raised some valid issues, mainly about some of the level design feeling too similar to Deus Ex, and also about the "aim for the head" flag that's been set to sparingly. I just think you've raised those issues in a manner that's too harsh, and have focused on some details that were non-issues. You HAVE given the devs some data, but obscured it behind white noise.
I don't think you're ignorant or don't love Deus Ex, but you have to know how to express those opinions not only in a matter that's productive to the future development, otherwise it'll be ignored - if only because it seems too similar to trolls.
All these strawmans.
Steam EXCLUSIVE is bad. EXCLUSIVE.
Maybe you need it one more time, EXCLUSIVE. Please, learn how to read. And the standalone installer requires you sign-in on steam anyway, so I dunno why you even bring that.

It isn't really nitpicking, when the orange glow is everywhere in the map, but whatever.
Yes, I indeed compared it with a mod that was meant to change the gameplay, not a mod that tried to change the maps and then the gameplay like it tried to be many things at once.

>Whenever I play Deus Ex, I don't say to myself "Well, TNM scored higher than Zodiac, so I should play that".
Dem strawmans. What I meant was. GMDX is a better mod than Revision, so you should play that. Its like saying Deus ex 1 is a better game than Deus ex 2, therefor you should play that. There is nothing wrong with this, you just cant handle comparisons, when said comparisons make Revision look like Fiat 200 on a sports car convention.

>and comparing it to GMDX is really unfair.
Maybe revision shouldn't try to change the gameplay, because no one asked for it.
Heres a direct quote from Revision description on moddb, the first thing you see.
>the revision project overhauls the environments and soundtrack of Deus ex. Where some other projects fill in details around the edges of the game by tuning gameplay mechanics or improving textures, we focus on the visceral core the experience, bringing new level design, aesthetic direction and world-building detail.
Or here https://madokami.com/r64ylr.jpg

It doesn't say a single thing about Gameplay, not only that, it tries to "bash "the other mods that change the gameplay by saying "We aren't those mods that change the gameplay or the textures", but ends up being a mod that changes the gameplay and forcing you New vision.


>You HAVE given the devs some data, but obscured it behind white noise.
The white noise called "we don't care about what anyone has to say, unless you are a fanboy". The proof of this is in this very thread.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by DevAnj »

Trasher wrote:Kim Wincen? Who is Kim Winchen? Who knows, who cares.

I've seen some of bits of the video and all I can say is that guy is really, really desperate. Anyone could make same style video of the original Deus Ex. Or heck you can pick up any game and make a similar video. It's not hard.
Did you watch the whole video, because there are lots of things he points out that aren't subjective. He maybe a bit too nitpicky, but it's hard to argue against most of what he points out. Also I know that the fix is simple, doesn't change that Shifter was the first mod to fix it. Sure, people can mock Deus Ex or any other game, but not everyone can find indepth flaws of those games, and Revision has many problems with its additions that the original levels didn't have.

I linked those videos because FastGamerr was saying that better people have given better criticism, while he never criticized this mod from what I've seen and I thought those videos had good criticism. Is expressing criticism of a mod wrong now just because someone doesn't like it?

Also which helpful reviews were positive on Steam? I don't mean by percentage of people who found it "helpful", I mean reviews that actually bothered to comprehensively cover the mod and most of its positives and negatives while still recommending it. So far I haven't seen a single positive review on Steam that's like that.

Also I have my own opinion, I formed it after playing 3 levels from the leaked version and reading all sorts of reviews. If all the negative reviews seem more meaningful and comprehensive than the positive ones, not to mention most of them stating similar flaws, than what should I conclude? Also yes, I don't want people to try a mediocre mod, so I won't recommend it to them. It's simple logic.

In the future, if you want to earn respect not attacking the character of your detractors is a good idea.
Last edited by DevAnj on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Bogie »

You know what? This mod isn't steam exclusive. At all. The ModDB installer give you the option to check whether you're using steam or not, and you can just use a shortcut to refer to the Revision INI files, and launch from there. It's that simple.\

Also,
mKaelus wrote:
Made in China wrote:
mKaelus wrote:Please, learn how to read.
Huh, didn't know we were questioning others ability to read in this thread here.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by mKaelus »

Bogie wrote:You know what? This mod isn't steam exclusive. At all. The ModDB installer give you the option to check whether you're using steam or not, and you can just use a shortcut to refer to the Revision INI files, and launch from there. It's that simple.\

Also,
mKaelus wrote:
Made in China wrote:
mKaelus wrote:Please, learn how to read.
Huh, didn't know we were questioning others ability to read in this thread here.
>it isn't steam exclusive if you edit the files in a half-assed way, to play an half-assed version of Revision

Good job mate. You still wont have most of the menus and you wont be able to chose shifter or biomod for example.

Its the same thing as using a crack, you are bypassing the DRM with a workaround.

And quoting again
>This installer contains all of the files necessary to play Deus Ex: Revision 1.0.1.2 on your computer. However, it is intended for use with a copy of Deus Ex owned through Steam. After installation, the next time Steam opens, allow to proceed with final steps of the installation to register everything properly.

It doesn't matter how much you try to drone your way out of this one, its steam exclusive.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Bogie »

I guess you're right about the extra menus, but they really aren't necessary. It's not like you're going to automatically give the mod 0 out 1000000 because you can't play the game slightly differently, and because you totally can't just turn the music off entirely and listen to it of Youtube or something. But if they just want to play the damn mod, I actually think they should buy the Steam version. I just played through a couple of levels, and I love it.
I even kept the soundtrack on because it was pretty good (You guys NAILED Vandenberg!).
But that's just my opinion. Guess I still can't drill myself out of this rock. :)
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by mKaelus »

Bogie wrote: But that's just my opinion.
Sadly, your opinions falls short on the real problems with Revision.
One of them is people allowing DRM to go inside mods and pretend that is ok just because you can workaround it.
Keep allowing this stuff and in 4/5 years, mods will have denuvo on them.
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