Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

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DevAnj
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by DevAnj »

You know what? This mod is great. Awesome level design everywhere, those turrets in the liquor shop totally make sense, as does the small basketball court in Hell's Kitchen. Music is superb too. There were some bugs but overall this mod is 10/10.

I hope this review was "useful and constructive" enough.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Bogie »

mKaelus wrote: 5 years, mods will have denuvo on them.
Wow, you're right.

Well, enough of this wild ride.

Also, to be fair the basketball court was in there to start. I live near an area were we just have 2 random basketball courts that people goto all the time.
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mKaelus
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by mKaelus »

Bogie wrote:
mKaelus wrote: 5 years, mods will have denuvo on them.
Wow, you're right.

Well, enough of this wild ride.
Its horse armor DLC all over again. Its really sad to see so much denial.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by DevAnj »

The problem is not in the basketball court, the problem is how the basketball court was made nonsensical, with two chairs and a streetlight placed inside it. Somehow such obvious problems with the design have been missed by most positive reviews.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by mKaelus »

DevAnj wrote:You know what? This mod is great. Awesome level design everywhere, those turrets in the liquor shop totally make sense, as does the small basketball court in Hell's Kitchen. Music is superb too. There were some bugs but overall this mod is 10/10.

I hope this review was "useful and constructive" enough.
Thats 500 points for the orange glow. Thats 1000 points for the broken AI.
Thats 20000 points for lying. 1000 points for the billboards in hell's kitchen, the land of the homeless really has a new shine for mega corporations. Steam exclusive is great 5000 points. Ghunter's safe/the empty decorations zones/the invisible walls really add a nice touch to the level design. 2000 points. The major bug that happened to me in HK, thats 30000 points! I was so amazed at how good the bug worked that I cant stop myself to give points for not being able to continue the game without starting a new character! Dowd was also another good change! It totally makes sense that is inside the sewers behind some metal bars, specially when we see the water treatment plant and how there is no way inside the tubes. 1000 points. All those maps that look the same as vanilla? 10000! Its like I am playing Deus ex without mods while playing a total overhaul mod! 5000 points. The square enix deal and the obvious timing with GoG sales to make a quick buck out of the forced silence from the devs. 10000 points.

Thats a total of 75000 points because I cant do math considering how I no longer have brain cells after playing revision. Who cares anyway about having no brain, good for me I can now blindly praise the devs like if I am their best friends and I own them part of my life.


Good, now we have two positive reviews and criticism right here. More of these and they can make a quick patch.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Bogie »

Hahah, yeah I agree with all of the above points.
In all seriousness though, which renderer were the maps made with in mind? I can't see anything in these darn levels.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Cybernetic pig »

mkaelus wrote:Yes, I indeed compared it with a mod that was meant to change the gameplay, not a mod that tried to change the maps and then the gameplay like it tried to be many things at once.

GMDX does attempt to change/improve all aspects of design deemed necessary, not just gameplay. However, a lot of it is very subtle and contextual as it merely attempts to polish the original design rather than be a re-imagining like Revision. You've played the beta, so you shouldn't have missed any of this!

The video up next covers level design, so comparisons are inevitable I guess.

*retreats from this time bomb of a thread*
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Trasher »

mKaelus wrote: What did you about the people who kept spamming the mailboxes of anyone who gave a negative score to the mod on moddb?
We all know you did nothing.
What did you do about the people who kept following you and praising the good and bad things about the mod?
Nothing.
What did you do about the people who made multiple accounts on moddb just to downvote negative comments?
Nothing.
What did you people do when someone pointed a flaw?
Name calling, lies, ignoring facts.
What did you people do when someone made a video containing just 1 screenshot and a fact about the mod being steam exclusive?
You tried to censor it, you took down comments and you tried to take down the video.
First of all I was not aware of people spamming someone's personal mailbox just because someone has a different opinion. That's just wrong.
Second, I'm not responsible for some people's actions that go way overboard, that's senseless. However I do apologize you for their actions. As for people who make multiple accounts on moddb to downvote someone - it also goes other way around. There's nothing I can do about that. The only thing moddb offers is "report" member but that's it and it won't do anything. Do you remember how long it took for moddb staff to take down that popular spammer on moddb where he advertised Per­fectDark® BLIND99 Agen­cy all over the place? Yeah, took a long time.

About your videos, I swear to god I haven't reported nor tried to take down your videos let alone comments.
A free mod that was only downloaded 97k times on steam with a average playtime of 3hours?
Even my shitty and undersubbed channel on youtube has more views than Revision copies owned.
Well, i don't know if comparing youtube views to downloads is the right thing to do but the first demos started off with only a few hundred downloads and even that was a lot to me back in the day. ~100k downloads(1½ months after release) may not be a lot to you but for me that's quite a big number considering where this all started and how small the team is. After all we're talking about a mod for a 15 year old game.

I wouldn't call your channel shitty, I do enjoy the videos you've put there. This video is one of my favorites =D>
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by wincenworks »

Trasher wrote:Kim Wincen? Who is Kim Winchen? Who knows, who cares.
I'm torn between pointing out the irony of this statement, and pointing out the staggering ineptitude of managing to mispell my family name right after typing it out correctly. But anyway, let's not pretend that my credentials would matter in the slightest to you.
I've seen some of bits of the video and all I can say is that guy is really, really desperate. Anyone could make same style video of the original Deus Ex. Or heck you can pick up any game and make a similar video. It's not hard.
And anyone can make a similar style mod of Deus Ex, or heck any game where there's a big modding community that's done all of the heavy lifting.

So it seems the difference between us is that I'm actually examining your production and trying to make something useful and entertaining to people who might wonder about it all the ways it went wrong, but don't want to suffer through it, while you're just assuming my production is without merit because it's convenient for you.
If you were a fair person you would also point out that most useful and constructive reviews are way more positive than negative.
Why do you think that the world owes it to you to coddle your feelings and tell you that you did a great job even if they disagree? Why are you entitled to dismiss other people's work as worthless but demand that everyone treat yours as inherently positive and worthy of praise? Is your ego that out of control because you made a mod most people are abandoning on the first map?
These days everyone's a critic. It's very easy to pick up a game and bash it to depths of hell and put a 0 score to it. If you believe these reviews then cows might as well fly and it's raining doughnuts everyday. Another fine example is Fallout 4 "REVIEWS" by the experts on metacritic or how about the new Star Wars? Or the excellent Battlefield 4?. Yeah, not very pretty.
I'm not sure if you're aware but just because a game is stamped AAA doesn't mean that it has been certified by divine authority as flawless and beyond reproach.

It is also not uncommon for games that are heavily, heavily flawed to receive exceptional reviews (Vampire: Bloodlines was so buggy it couldn't be played without cheats at first release). Even Duke Nukem Forever got it's shares of 9s and 10s in user reviews on MetaCritic and currently enjoys a "mostly positive" review status on Steam (though it's only 70% compared with Revision's 77%).

Now if there is someone doing an in depth, mostly positive video series on Revision and showing all the bits that have improved the game overall for them then please let me know because even my friend who defended it in comments and has been obsessed with Deus Ex (like 800-1500 hours obsessed) since initial release only played through Revision once and then left a quote from a DataCube (about nano-augmentations) as his positive review.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Trasher »

Sorry for misspelling your name. That was not intentional.
Why do you think that the world owes it to you to coddle your feelings and tell you that you did a great job even if they disagree? Why are you entitled to dismiss other people's work as worthless but demand that everyone treat yours as inherently positive and worthy of praise? Is your ego that out of control because you made a mod most people are abandoning on the first map?
I have no problems with negative or neutral reviews when they make sense. Critic is needed and we learn from mistakes. Revision evolved from all the critic collected back in the day when demo's were released. However, my main issues are when people start spreading things that aren't even true. Never have I said that Revision is here to replace the original Deus Ex. In fact I think Deus Ex is a masterpiece and no modification can replace that. Second, we haven't advertised our first modification as a masterpiece, which you state in your video. Do you see me going forum to forum and tell people that "Hey, there's a new masterpiece mod that is 1000x times better than original Deus Ex? GET IT NOW"?

Now, I'm not going in depth and comment on every "issue" you bring up in your videos or else this would turn into a really long post. In general, most are just really, really bad nitpicking about everything and the horrendous DirectX10 render you're using is just icing on the cake. Granted, you started using appropiate settings in your second video so that's a little better. In all fairness, you brought up good points too in regards to places that have not been touched but should have e.g battery park. I would have wanted to make something more out of Batter Park and the subway stations, unfortunately the workload for one level designer is outrageous considering that the base game has quite a few maps and the tools to build things are ancient and it's very time consuming. There are also some doors that look like you could open but are not actual doors, and I agree, it should have appropiate texture for that instead of fooling a player to walk to it. I was a bit harsh on what I said about your videos, you pointed out some legitimate flaws in the game. But yes, there's a lot of fixing to do, work isn't done.

I'm going to quote Made In China since it's very well said:
That being said, criticism of anything is valid, and so is yours. But not elevating yourself above the level of trolls makes the devs treat you like one, even if what you say is valid. I'm not saying you should come up with solutions to their problems, either, but bashing something relentlessly doesn't make your point will not contribute to anything - it'll just make you semi-popular on YouTube.
Since you wanted some videos, you could check out these you tube channels: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... TRXVE8BdDo
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... dut3HQh1dk

I'm not sure if you're aware but just because a game is stamped AAA doesn't mean that it has been certified by divine authority as flawless and beyond reproach.
Of course not. No game is flawless. The question is whether you're able to live with its flaws and enjoy the game despite it's problems.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Jonas »

In a desperate attempt to get something useful out of this thread, and seeing how we seem to have several members of the actual mod here, a question: what was the original purpose of Revision? My understanding was that it was primarily an attempt to freshen up Deus Ex by modifying the levels, to complement the efforts of other teams to enhance the visuals by updating the models and the textures. Is this correct?

If so, why did you only have one level designer? That seems kinda crazy. If the whole point of the mod is to update all the levels, and you seem to be aware that it's too big a task for one level designer, why not try to recruit more? Perhaps you tried, but nobody was up for it?

I'm merely interested to hear about how you ended up in this position where you're using your lack of manpower as an excuse for some of the flaws or shortcomings of your mod. Don't get me wrong, lack of manpower is something I sympathise with, even though as you've pointed out, it was rarely a problem on TNM :)

Just curious.
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wincenworks
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by wincenworks »

Trasher wrote:I have no problems with negative or neutral reviews when they make sense. Critic is needed and we learn from mistakes. Revision evolved from all the critic collected back in the day when demo's were released. However, my main issues are when people start spreading things that aren't even true. Never have I said that Revision is here to replace the original Deus Ex. In fact I think Deus Ex is a masterpiece and no modification can replace that.
1. Your mod is called "Revision" and obnoxiously removes Deus Ex from the title screen and eliminates subtitles in the intro so you can put your team credits. The level of self importance this declares is impossible to undo with a claim of humility.
2. Your video on Steam claims it's for people to re-discover Deus Ex, not that it's an experimental spin on an old classic.
3. If you thought Deus Ex was a masterpiece and not just an old title with a still extremely topical franchise you would show the game and it's developers a lot more respect.
4. Have you even looked at the copy on your web site? I mean for the mod, not for yourself and the rest of your team.
Second, we haven't advertised our first modification as a masterpiece, which you state in your video. Do you see me going forum to forum and tell people that "Hey, there's a new masterpiece mod that is 1000x times better than original Deus Ex? GET IT NOW"?
Again, have you looked at your Steam page and your web page? Seriously the levels of self-congratulation and uptalking there including claims of adding story-telling to the world etc?

That's what I take issue with (you'll notice I never talk about the soundtrack, because I neither care nor feel qualified to talk on it) and you're selling up NewVision and HDTP as the "best" mods for Deus Ex, as though you're doing people a favour by including them in Revision when they've been able to add them themselves for quite some time.

You want to mod a beloved classic according to your own rules and then police exactly how people play it and how they talk about it - that's not nice.
Now, I'm not going in depth and comment on every "issue" you bring up in your videos or else this would turn into a really long post. In general, most are just really, really bad nitpicking about everything and the horrendous DirectX10 render you're using is just icing on the cake.
Your mod overloading the engine to the point where there were crashes, people having to manually adjust their .ini files and having to use a renderer based entirely on the fact that otherwise the game was unplayable was the icing on the cake. Particularly when there's a QA title in the credits.

I don't see what Milton, the Cubby Hubbies, the areas of pitch black (which are still there regardless of what renderer), pointless troop placement, addition of non-sensical buildings like the shack, the room that Kaplan sits in (doing "parade drills"), the addition of the rebreather as a fuck-you to anyone who took swimming, etc are all unrelated to DX10. That's just the shit I remember off the top of my head.
Granted, you started using appropiate settings in your second video so that's a little better. In all fairness, you brought up good points too in regards to places that have not been touched but should have e.g battery park. I would have wanted to make something more out of Batter Park and the subway stations, unfortunately the workload for one level designer is outrageous considering that the base game has quite a few maps and the tools to build things are ancient and it's very time consuming.
I am aware that it is very time consuming - part of the creative process on a big, multi-part project is prioritizing. Killing the bits that don't matter to make time and resources for the bits that do. However massive amounts of developer and game resources have been spent on things like adding decorations to tiny hidden areas, cluttering up the map with non-sensical decorations (like all the garbage and unkept lawns).

So far the most work seems to be put into the areas that were already the most polished by Ion Storm, not those which had to be left as they were due to time, budget and space constraints on the CD-ROM.

Padding up these areas not only wastes time but it also dulls all the polish put on by the original creators. The original Hell's Kitchen was small, for sure, but it was set up so where-ever you walked you could see somewhere to go so you never felt trapped or like you'd reached an arbitrary point. The new map is bigger, but has clear reminders it's a small map: The bits where you can see a corridor that looks like it goes somewhere but there's something blocking it as if to say "This is not for you. Go back to your game map."

The appeal of Hell's Kitchen was obviously because it was such an engaging and memorable location, the player's first introduction to real choice and branching - but that's the exact reason it should have been a low priority - because any changes will need to be checked that they fit into the existing masterpiece then polished to the same level of shine.

Areas like Battery Park weren't as memorable and that meant they had a lot more potential for re-working (particularly if targeting a general audience) because you didn't have to worry about ruining anyone's favourite moment and there were inherently more options due to them having being worked less and less options explored and locked in.
There are also some doors that look like you could open but are not actual doors, and I agree, it should have appropriate texture for that instead of fooling a player to walk to it. I was a bit harsh on what I said about your videos, you pointed out some legitimate flaws in the game. But yes, there's a lot of fixing to do, work isn't done.
So I've been upgraded from nitpicking to legitimate complaints and I didn't have to edit my videos in any way. Magic.

A lot of them aren't issue of "fixing" they're inherent flaws in design that come from a lack of knowledge and experience in game design. Stuff like ignoring the dialogue of of Hell's Kitchen to instead re-invent it as a more action orientated and "grim 90s" type experience, making Liberty Island dark and shadowy with weeds and garbage everywhere despite the fact it is 1. a tourist destination and 2. the site of a high security government compound.

This is why the mantra for leaning creative disciplines is "fail faster" - because whether it's writing, drawing, music, level design, AI programming, you are going to make mistakes. When you start, you are going to make big ones - at a conceptual level. Then no amount of buffing can fix those, and the more effort you put into it the more the temptation to defend it and double down on those mistakes.
I'm going to quote Made In China since it's very well said:
That being said, criticism of anything is valid, and so is yours. But not elevating yourself above the level of trolls makes the devs treat you like one, even if what you say is valid. I'm not saying you should come up with solutions to their problems, either, but bashing something relentlessly doesn't make your point will not contribute to anything - it'll just make you semi-popular on YouTube.
I somehow doubt I'll get to be semi-popular on YouTube doing critical analysis of mods that virtually nobody is talking after they had an anti-climatic release. If I wanted to be getting attention via trolling I'd have abused the shit out of cheats to check out all the maps in a few sitting and get out some video with lots of profanity, screaming, etc on the first few days of release while it was a hot topic.

Here's the thing: I don't work for you. You don't pay me. Nobody pays me. I don't even have monetization activated in the vain hope of generating ad revenue.

I make the videos for my own amusement, the entertainment of a few friends and experimenting with video as a medium. I started putting them on Steam so my Steam Friends could see and for a smaller expansion in audience (who I don't really expect to agree with me) and because well nobody else was doing it and I figured someone else might be sharing my opinion on it. I'm less a troll and more of an overthinking jester.

I am not very far through the game, but I don't see any way a project like this can end well or that it can be salvaged - even if you spend the next eight years releasing patches. It's basically a giant collection of the mistakes that people make their first time with level design, story editing, etc. Which is why it makes it interesting to me and works as a practice project.

It's also a common problem not just video game mods but all kinds of creative projects - someone sees something and decides they can fix an aspect themselves. Sometimes it works quite well because it's simply an alternative viewpoint or they genuinely do have some sort of better insight, and sometimes it's just someone vastly underestimates the work involved and the sophistication of the original work.

When that happens, it invariably goes bad simply because they don't appreciate the bigger picture - my love of the big picture is part of why I would rather have low definition textures that were all carefully chosen and crafted rather than NewVision or HDTP. If I was more interesting in AI programming I'd worry more about the changes, if I was more into programming and 3d engines I'd worry more about the specifics of how the engine is getting overloaded. There's a lot of ground that could be covered.

Pretending that Revision doesn't have any critical flaws or that the approach of trying to redo all the most polished areas, while ignoring the areas where there was room for re-invention, wasn't a critical mistake isn't going to magically make the mod better or convince me that I'm mistaken in my belief that many of the design decisions are terrible.
Since you wanted some videos, you could check out these you tube channels: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... TRXVE8BdDo https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... dut3HQh1dk
Neither of them is really reviewing the game, rather they're just playing it their own way and trying to entertain the audience because that's what LPers do. There's some insistence that things are "so nice now" and taglines like "the mod that breathed new life into an old classic" but never any exploration as to why and the only criticism that Ranmaru Richu is confident to stand behind is a bug from vanilla. RavingRajek calls you assholes for taking out the medbot, but he doesn't notice that until he's already completed the first mission because he was primarily interested in hitting people with his crowbar.

I can see why you might enjoy people telling you that your product is great over and over, telling you what you want to hear - but I don't see that it has any value to anyone who actually wants to review and analyse a game.

I mean, even terrible games get entertaining vids and neither of those players seemed to be interested in much of the aspects that you sell up on the mod page. The offices are "nice" but nobody talks about what it means or how it improves the story, they're just there. You could put posters of tits up on all the walls ala Duke Nukem Forever's intro level and it'd amount to more or less the same thing.
I'm not sure if you're aware but just because a game is stamped AAA doesn't mean that it has been certified by divine authority as flawless and beyond reproach.
Of course not. No game is flawless. The question is whether you're able to live with its flaws and enjoy the game despite it's problems.
It's not the 80s any more, we don't have to force ourselves to like video games because we don't have options. We live in a glorious era of freedom where we can weigh up the pros, cons and then decide if the benefits outweigh the problems. Furthermore we have all these social media options to express ourselves.

That a game has a great brand, a hefty price tag or a lot of hype is no reason for people to feel obligated to work to find a way to enjoy it - rather a game that makes itself enjoyable should become seen as great for doing so. Of course, there's commercial factors and politics that interfere - but by and large that's the ideal.

It's the dream that led Ion Storm to create a whole new Intellectual Property and pioneer a genre as best they could within the limitations of the day. To imply that people are obligated to like a game or a mod is to insult not just the audience but also the people who work to create fine products and the people who are working on humble, heavily flawed products few people will appreciate in the hopes of building skills to create something great one day.

Super Meat Boy, for instance, was a very fine game made by a team of two guys who spent a lot of time making less fine games so they could build up the skills and combine their talents to create a very polished game that was simple but brilliantly employed everything that is know about good game design in it's genre and expanded upon that knowledge base. People overlook the flaws in it because the core experience of the game is (for people who like that sort of thing) fantastic.

Revision is a mod on top of a brilliant game that mixed gameplay, story telling, level design and aesthetics in a way that is still impressive today and most of the issues are either things that are low priority (bathrooms, getting rid of desk phones, etc) or are enhancements that require a lot of skill and care to make work.

Clumsily padding out empty areas, altering AIs, troop placements, lighting and then covering it in layer up on layer of bombast is not the way that you get people to overlook flaws - you do it by keeping them entertained.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Cybernetic pig »

wincenworks wrote: When that happens, it invariably goes bad simply because they don't appreciate the bigger picture - my love of the big picture is part of why I would rather have low definition textures that were all carefully chosen and crafted rather than NewVision or HDTP.
Please don't imply (or state outright) that HDTP and New Vision aren't carefully crafted with respect for the original design, at least not without elaboration. Sure, HDTP's character models are uncanny valley inconsistent garbage, New Vision's Chinese signs are inaccurate, and in the case of both artistic liberties are occasionally taken, yet the vast majority of the work done is painstakingly faithful:

New Vision VS Vanilla

For the most part, the only things that aren't 1:1 high-res updates here are the signs.

As for HDTP, it's more of the same: the majority being very faithful, with the occasional outlier. I would only take issue with it if we could not disable the character models. I also don't like the new design of the sniper rifle, and some models have LOD issues, but it's a flaw I'm willing to accept. We had to accept many of those when we first played DX prior to the everlasting infatuation.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by FastGamerr »

Jonas wrote:In a desperate attempt to get something useful out of this thread.
Completely impossible at this point. Sorry, man.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Jonas wrote:In a desperate attempt to get something useful out of this thread, and seeing how we seem to have several members of the actual mod here, a question: what was the original purpose of Revision? My understanding was that it was primarily an attempt to freshen up Deus Ex by modifying the levels, to complement the efforts of other teams to enhance the visuals by updating the models and the textures. Is this correct?
Not a Revision dev, but it says what it is on their moddb page:

"Deus Ex: Revision is a large-scale re-imagining of the world of Deus Ex, bringing a tightly integrated aesthetic-oriented approach to the original gameplay Level design."

Emphasis and strikethrough mine.
Whilst "gameplay" is not incorrect (changing level design changes how the maps play out, of course), "level design" is more accurate.

I'd imagine it is a bit confusing as to what the mod does based on the descriptions alone, which would explain why people thought HDTP & New Vision were Revision: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pRiiIhLnsk

I also read a game journo article that did the same: "COMPARISON SCREENSHOTS REVISION VS VANILLA", and it goes on to show HDTP greasel vs vanilla greasel. Typical games journalism.
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