Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

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Cybernetic pig
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Cybernetic pig »

FastGamerr wrote:So far so good, seeing as your mod is sufficiently popular to get noted by mainstream gaming media but not too popular to get tainted like DXREV was. Of course, a bit more general attention would still bring in more players. ;)

Wish I could have helped you out like you asked a few months back, but I don't edit or even play games anymore, so I hope you'll rock twice the casbah come Dec 8th. :]
Yeah, fingers crossed. I'm simply not on the ball with marketing like Revision or TNM was sadly, so I probably won't attain satisfactory exposure. Sad but it is how it works.

Another mod that deserves more exposure is 2027. It's a really great mod but it didn't reach the whole fanbase.
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DevAnj
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by DevAnj »

ggrotz wrote: 1. This in the quote. The Revision team did not communicate very well that a lot of what is in their package is third-party things provided by other developers. This is what resulted in the confusion you illustrated as well as the support questions I've been getting over the new HDTP release regarding "compatibility with Revision". This is making it abundantly clear that in the minds of a great many involved that New Vision and HDTP are Revision when this is not the case.

2. People are choosing NOW to slam HDTP and New Vision for some reason, which I think ties back to #1. New Vision was released 3 years, 3 days ago. The majority of HDTP (graphics-wise, including those character models) was released 3 years, 11 days ago. Interestingly enough, I've never read any negative reviews of either, barring the HDTP character models until Revision got released.

Indeed, very interesting, how skewed off all of this has been going.

** ducking out and running back to doing other stuff now **
Honestly I don't know about other people, but Kim Wincen didn't bother with Deus Ex mods until he heard of and got Revision, and so it's obvious he wouldn't have known or tried out HDTP and New Vision before then.

@FastGamerr: Nowhere did Kim Wincen say the Revision team can't alter the original game, he only said he doesn't like how they did it, and elaborated on the reasons why in his post. If you think he's too attached to the original game, so be it, but I think he has valid points and I would like to see someone try to counter them through proper arguments, not by attacking his character or making strawmen.

Before people decide to decry me as being hypocritical for not having criticized Revision's demoes but having criticized Revision, let me tell you then when I did try one of their demoes first in 2014 I didn't like it. I didn't tell much about it because I was confident that they would have improved on the level design since then, blindly going off the screenshots shown on their web page. That was until I played the leak, and it turns out they didn't, atleast not in the core layout.
Last edited by DevAnj on Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Well, I can defend this one actually:
wincenworks wrote:I don't like the new design of the standard issue pistol - if it was supposed to look like a Glock it would have looked like a Glock in the original.
It did!

http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Pistol_(DX)

"The pistol is similar in design to the family of Glock pistols. Moreover, its texture file is named "glock"."

Yes, the design of the new one is still not wholly faithful, but seriously, look at that old thing. How would you update it?
Even for mods that intend to be faithful, taking the occasional creative liberty is OK in my book as long as the end result fits the game world and is an agreeable improvement, which in the case of HDTP's pistol it quite obviously is.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Made in China »

DevAnj, I don't think any of my arguments were strawmen (since this term was only used in reference to them so far).
Seriously, mKaelus had very easy to solve issues (using the DX10 renderer instead of OpenGL, not going so far as looking up Kentie's Deus Exe, etc.) and I don't think they really count as real issues when you're dealing with a mod - it requires a bit of know how from the get go.
So if you want a counter-argument, that's it. Again, I'm aware of the flaws Revision has, and I do wish some of them were different. Non of us is delusional that Revision is perfect (and weirdly enough, it keeps coming up, as if someone has EVER said it), and Trasher explained his work load and admitted that some mistakes were made. The end product did suffer from it, but it's not his fault - in fact, Revision is pretty much astonishing as it was made by such a small team.

Regarding Kim Wincen's claims about atmosphere, well, he's right. Partially. Whenever Trasher had the time and could build everything from the ground up, the result was pretty good - Hell's Kitchen, from being 2 blocks and a park, became a real neighborhood, and I think it was pretty memorable. I admit I got lost there in the beginning, but now I can pretty much navigate flawlessly - and if that doesn't mean immersion, I don't know what is. Also, the reuse of graphics assets is prevalent in any game, but good for you for noticing.
Anyway, when Trasher had to reuse maps, it blended together with vanilla Deus Ex and it made the impression of just clutter. Again, I think that that's how modern video games are made - you can't have just an empty space, something has to take place in it (unless you're a Bethesda game, then you're cool).

So, yeah, I think I'll stop arguing stuff on this thread. The Deus Ex community was once happy receive ANY mod that fell on its lap, and now it just makes me sad.
Here's hoping that GMDX will bring on a much needed change, and maybe spark interest once more in Deus Ex modding.
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DevAnj
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by DevAnj »

Made in China wrote: Regarding Kim Wincen's claims about atmosphere, well, he's right. Partially. Whenever Trasher had the time and could build everything from the ground up, the result was pretty good - Hell's Kitchen, from being 2 blocks and a park, became a real neighborhood, and I think it was pretty memorable. I admit I got lost there in the beginning, but now I can pretty much navigate flawlessly - and if that doesn't mean immersion, I don't know what is. Also, the reuse of graphics assets is prevalent in any game, but good for you for noticing.
Anyway, when Trasher had to reuse maps, it blended together with vanilla Deus Ex and it made the impression of just clutter. Again, I think that that's how modern video games are made - you can't have just an empty space, something has to take place in it (unless you're a Bethesda game, then you're cool).
I understand the intention behind the redesign, I just think it's poorly executed. Also whether you can navigate well or not isn't the question here, the question here is do the additions fit well and follow the philosophy of the original level, or even not comparing it to the original game(which is inevitable since the mod takes its level design from there) whether they are any good on their own. Kim Wincen states that it doesn't and they aren't, because it abandons the visual language the original level used(like clearly barred doors for doors you can't use, different lighting for areas of interest and such) and adds weird "honeypot" areas that seem interesting but have nothing in them, the layout tricks it used to try to prevent players from getting lost(like basically having the main road circle around itself with points of interest a bit away from it) and has additions that bloat it out(the two extra rooms in the Ton Hotel, which don't seem to have much in environmental storytelling compared to the original two rooms, the weird readjustment of the basketball court to be small and have a streetlight in the middle of it, the way a sick woman asks for money if you break into her room in an abandoned apartment, etc.)

Also adding objects to a level alone doesn't count as having "something" happen in it. I will admit I think that Liberty Island and a lot of Deus Ex maps were a bit too barren originally, but I would have been more careful while adding objects to the levels. There's also the need to ask how the objects fit in with the environment, because seeing lots of wild grass and trashbags in what's supposed to be a tourist location/paramilitary base just looks odd and would make some people question what the level is trying to do.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by ggrotz »

DevAnj wrote: Honestly I don't know about other people, but Kim Wincen didn't bother with Deus Ex mods until he heard of and got Revision, and so it's obvious he wouldn't have known or tried out HDTP and New Vision before then.
Then I could say that he needed to educate himself (as do most of the reviewers) on what is what in these packages. Effectively in all three of his videos, he devoted maybe 40% of the time towards Revision, yet in his mind was reviewing "Revision". He had the right idea to begin with in stripping all (or as much) of the third-party software as possible if he was going to review "Revision" and not anything else. Or if he needed to familiarize himself with what the third-party software does, he needed to load up a vanilla version of Deus Ex and figure out what parts were indeed Revision, and what parts were New Vision and HDTP. As I understand, the default Revision install loads Human Renovation, so yet another third-party piece of software that's not Revision.

The main point I was trying to make is that it's not so much a Revision review if you start reviewing 4 or 5 other packages as well, and then blending it all together and calling it "Revision".

Unfortunately, GMDX will suffer with problems of the same nature in review, but you really can't control if you get informed and unbiased reviewers or not for anything that you do.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Cybernetic pig »

ggrotz wrote: Unfortunately, GMDX will suffer with problems of the same nature in review, but you really can't control if you get informed and unbiased reviewers or not for anything that you do.
New Vision will be optional install, and it will be made clear in the installation instructions (which has to be read to install it ofc) that HDTP & New Vision are their own thing. This is already the case in fact and has been since the beginning. But other than that, yeah, if potential reviewers have not played any DX mod before they are not going to have a clear understanding of what mod does what, but at least it will be clear that those mods are not to be credited to GMDX so we avoid videos like that Candyland one...although all those views (plus link to the mod itself) would be nice, but credit should go to where it is due.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by wincenworks »

Cybernetic pig wrote:Well argued. Like I said, there are outliers. With the added texture definition along with DX's reuse of textures indeed the texture patterns become more evident, but this only applies to large, commonly used generic surfaces, especially when the textures were made more gritty in some cases.
As I mentioned, I can see how these have appeal to people who have played DX to the point where everything memorized and they want to experiment with kinds of novelty. If however, you're playing to re-experience the story it's fine when they're fine and jarring when they're not. The inconsistency is what creates the problems.
GMDX has addressed this in some specific places it really stood out. In the case of HDTP objects with higher definition, well frequent reuse of objects is something we accept in every game including modern hi-def ones like, say, Fallout: New Vegas, so we naturally ignore that every weapon model, decorative object and such is a clone of the last of its type. I think that's where the problem lies at its core.
Part of the reason Fallout has worked so well as a 3D game is that its post-apocalyptic psuedo-1950s aesthetic creates an expectation of things looking out of place and there being a mix of home made, salvaged and well maintained. If someone has a nice house with a crappy looking coffee pot - it immediately makes sense that they couldn't get a better coffee pot because Wasteland.

Deus Ex was supposed to be a sort of sci-fi future world where we regularly move between the places of the haves and the haves not.
I cannot excuse the other points you made directly beyond that the issues are few and far between.
The mileage varies, but for me the infuriation of running into things that make me stop and try to work out WTF is going on when I'm supposed to be feeling more immersed doesn't help it.
Visually speaking, Deus Ex was not an artistic masterpiece nor particularly easy on the eye like a Simpsons character.
Season One Simpsons weren't particularly easy on the eyes. They've streamlined, experimented and refined a lot over the years. However the principle remains constant.
The game also took a photo-realistic approach to level design quite often, which New Vision often complements well (Korean War Memorial and other plaques in Battery Park for instance). HDTP and New Vision can simply really make it look great in some areas. One aspect in which I appreciate no longer having to use my imagination is HDTP's weapon mod attachments.
Again it comes down to my fixation with the big picture. Not being able to read the plaques on memorials never bothered me because it made sense that the wear and tear would make the illegible and the priority was it was a site that enshrined history rather than the details on the real historical event.

I like the weapon attachments feature too, which is good because I'm apparently stuck with having to keep HDTP (or forfeit my saved game).
Edit: wincenworks, I'm impressed by your critical eye and understanding of the vanilla design (not just visually). Would you be willing to play the beta of GMDXv8.0 and "vivisect" it, so that way all noteworthy criticism I can address before release? I have always been very intent on doing this right with respect for the original design, so I think you could be a very valuable asset,
Sure. Just be aware my schedule is prone to random fluctuations, particularly since I'm moving in the near future.
even if you are overly critical at times.
Never do anything halfway. ;)
FastGamerr wrote:Just remember to cover your ground and make sure you won't insult their Holy Game in any way, CyberP. Their one true unquestionable interpretation is backed up with FACTS after all.
Pfft, the holy game was made in 1988 and was descerated in 2001 (thanks Stormfront Studios). There was also a fan remake mod but I never played it because I didn't have the base game.
Cybernetic pig wrote:Well, I can defend this one actually:
wincenworks wrote:I don't like the new design of the standard issue pistol - if it was supposed to look like a Glock it would have looked like a Glock in the original.
It did!

http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Pistol_(DX)

"The pistol is similar in design to the family of Glock pistols. Moreover, its texture file is named "glock"."

Yes, the design of the new one is still not wholly faithful, but seriously, look at that old thing. How would you update it?
Even for mods that intend to be faithful, taking the occasional creative liberty is OK in my book as long as the end result fits the game world and is an agreeable improvement, which in the case of HDTP's pistol it quite obviously is.
I'm not sure if they mean similar to Glock or "similar to every automatic handgun made since 1911". That the texture file is named Glock just means they're aware of Glocks though personally I think they eventually went more with Smith & Wesson 1006 (which is actually a 10mm pistol that was used by police).

I'd suggest looking at something like one of Sig's chunkier models and then doing a bit of recolouring, stretching etc to make it look different enough that it could be a future gun.
Made in China wrote:Regarding Kim Wincen's claims about atmosphere, well, he's right. Partially. Whenever Trasher had the time and could build everything from the ground up, the result was pretty good - Hell's Kitchen, from being 2 blocks and a park, became a real neighborhood, and I think it was pretty memorable. I admit I got lost there in the beginning, but now I can pretty much navigate flawlessly - and if that doesn't mean immersion, I don't know what is.
1979 called. They want their standards back.
Also, the reuse of graphics assets is prevalent in any game, but good for you for noticing.
Some people propose that since it is inevitable that people should incorporate it in planning.
Anyway, when Trasher had to reuse maps, it blended together with vanilla Deus Ex and it made the impression of just clutter. Again, I think that that's how modern video games are made - you can't have just an empty space, something has to take place in it (unless you're a Bethesda game, then you're cool).
Pretty sure MGSV:TPP wasn't a Bethesda game. Or Far Cry 3. Or Dirty Bomb. Or The Stanley Parable. Or Dragon Age: Inquisition.

The idea that you can't have empty space is the same line of thinking as "more pixels is better". It's one based off the idea that adding anything is automatically an improvement. This isn't the case. Things need to have a purpose and contrast with other things.
ggrotz wrote:Then I could say that he needed to educate himself (as do most of the reviewers) on what is what in these packages. Effectively in all three of his videos, he devoted maybe 40% of the time towards Revision, yet in his mind was reviewing "Revision". He had the right idea to begin with in stripping all (or as much) of the third-party software as possible if he was going to review "Revision" and not anything else.
That was less planning and more just how it worked once I got it to actually play. As for what is "Revision" - I'm finding it difficult to tell since Caustic Creative seem to insist that NewVision and HDTP are essential parts of Revision (which is even more complicated when you consider HDTP was considerate enough to let you select which HD skins you wanted active).

According to the site:
"Revision brings in Project HDTP and New Vision for high-detail models and textures. Project HDTP’s character models are included, but disabled by default; they offer a stylized look that may not be to everyone’s taste. Meanwhile, New Vision’s high-resolution textures are complimented by some of our own. "

Now the bits that seem to be created by Caustic Creative seem to be in the style of NewVision/HDTP, so they do stand out if you don't have them on there. Then there issue of how "faithful" the recreations are.

Basically it's a terrible mess.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by ggrotz »

wincenworks wrote:That was less planning and more just how it worked once I got it to actually play. As for what is "Revision" - I'm finding it difficult to tell since Caustic Creative seem to insist that NewVision and HDTP are essential parts of Revision (which is even more complicated when you consider HDTP was considerate enough to let you select which HD skins you wanted active).
Which is why I suggested that a vanilla Deus Ex load of these third-party assets would be educational. A cursory pick through of the Revision install (or just asking), would have revealed these third-party packages, all of which you can download separately. To wit, packaging them with Revision in the way it was done (files included by default, non standard paths to the official third-party mod packages) only added to these confusion problems. As I mentioned in my first comment in this thread, there's a lot of fucktardery going on on all sides of this, but given that I'm one of the ones working with GMDX right now (primarily play testing, but installer), comparisons would be far too inevitable and undeserved at this time.
Cybernetic pig wrote:it will be made clear in the installation instructions (which has to be read to install it ofc) that HDTP & New Vision are their own thing.
I should add to this that separate installers are run for these which preserve the conditions of the third-party install packages - in other words, the files are not private to GMDX, but will be installed so other mods may be able to use them as the original developers intended. Anyone that watches a install will see very clearly that HDTP and New Vision are wholly separate from GMDX.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Cybernetic pig »

ggrotz wrote: I should add to this that separate installers are run for these which preserve the conditions of the third-party install packages - in other words, the files are not private to GMDX, but will be installed so other mods may be able to use them as the original developers intended. Anyone that watches a install will see very clearly that HDTP and New Vision are wholly separate from GMDX.
Yep, as it should be.
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Double post.
wincenworks wrote: The mileage varies, but for me the infuriation of running into things that make me stop and try to work out WTF is going on when I'm supposed to be feeling more immersed doesn't help it.
Well, watching the video the majority of stuff that made you stop and rant was Revision, rarely HDTP + New Vision.
Season One Simpsons weren't particularly easy on the eyes. They've streamlined, experimented and refined a lot over the years. However the principle remains constant.
I'm unsure about "streamlined". Sure the finalized style of character design is more simplistic looking, however the animations have far more frames, and the backgrounds feature much more definition.
Again it comes down to my fixation with the big picture. Not being able to read the plaques on memorials never bothered me because it made sense that the wear and tear would make the illegible and the priority was it was a site that enshrined history rather than the details on the real historical event.
The big picture is much prettier with HDTP and New Vision, and the flaws few and far between and easily fixable in the grand scheme. It is worth it.

You're very much arguing from the stance of "less is more", which is unusual for DX considering its comprehensive kitchen sink design that resulted in many aspects being left unpolished. Still, a lot of your points are absolutely valid and yes, less can be more if more is just badly implemented, but I don't think that is the case for HDTP + New Vision in most respects.
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FastGamerr
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by FastGamerr »

mKaelus wrote:I know one of the guys
Everything I needed to know.
Made in China wrote:weirdly enough, it keeps coming up, as if someone has EVER said it
I like all the other things I've never said too!
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mKaelus
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by mKaelus »

FastGamerr wrote:
mKaelus wrote:I know one of the guys
Everything I needed to know.
What is "everything you needed to know"?
Are you saying its me?
Because its not. I only gave 1 review on Moddb.
And you even come to my mod and give it a sarcastic 10/10 as if you are accusing me by doing the opposite? Because you saw Max_pain giving me a 10/10?

What part of "I know one of the guys" you didn't understand?

I am seriously doubting that you are actually 27.
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Jonas
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by Jonas »

Trasher wrote:Second guy joined in and sticked around for a few days and then faked his own death in order to ditch out(he kept updating his facebook eventhough he was, well "dead").
Hahahah! :lol:

Well you gotta give him credit for the chutzpah, I guess - that's a pretty hilarious way to leave a mod team.

I'm impressed you stuck with it even after you'd been left alone with such a big task. I think Revision will look very nice in your portfolio if you decide to pursue a career in the games industry (I don't actually know who you are or what you're up to at the moment, so I apologise for the presumption if it turns out you're already a professional game developer).

And finally: fuck BSP errors ;)
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ggrotz
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Re: Deus Ex Revision is 2 days away

Post by ggrotz »

I'll leave this screen shot here - a great illustration of the silliness of the "openness, dead end I can't get into" slam that's getting made on Revision by Kim Winchen and others:
it's GMDX but this still exists in Deus Ex too.  It's a stupid slam to make against Revision where it happens in Deus Ex and repeatedly in other mods.
it's GMDX but this still exists in Deus Ex too. It's a stupid slam to make against Revision where it happens in Deus Ex and repeatedly in other mods.
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