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Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread) 
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Mole Person

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Post Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread)
Cybernetic pig wrote:
Quote:
Season One Simpsons weren't particularly easy on the eyes. They've streamlined, experimented and refined a lot over the years. However the principle remains constant.

I'm unsure about "streamlined". Sure the finalized style of character design is more simplistic looking, however the animations have far more frames, and the backgrounds feature much more definition.

Animation nerds actually got upset a few years ago because a new iteration of the classic Simpson's introduction had a lesser range of motion and had shifted details from the active foreground to the static background. You can also see that they've taken a tendency towards clearer, cleaner frames, stylizing things like their teeth (we now rarely see both rows of teeth separate and even more rarely are individual teeth rendered) and shifting to a clearer color palette and linework (due to increased definition tv).

Season One, Episode Five
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Season Twenty-five, Episode Five
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You can see that backgrounds have more "definition" now but they're in a manner that's selective. Little details like scratches in the wall work fine now that it's high definition and these can be included clearly without distracting. They still rely heavily on repeatition of similistic geometric shapes and shading is only used when it's in the distance, a massive object or a really complex stylized to be simple enough it's not distracting (like a tree). Scenes where characters are going to return to and be at for long periods have complicated backgrounds, while others have simple and/or reptitious backgrounds.

Early episodes sometimes had ridiculous amounts of detail and clutter in backgrounds, but the mileage varied wildly.

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Again it comes down to my fixation with the big picture. Not being able to read the plaques on memorials never bothered me because it made sense that the wear and tear would make the illegible and the priority was it was a site that enshrined history rather than the details on the real historical event.

The big picture is much prettier with HDTP and New Vision, and the flaws few and far between and easily fixable in the grand scheme. It is worth it.

I'm going to be honest, I don't really care for pretty. I love beauty, don't really care for pretty. ;)

Particularly because things like the shift from "functional and charming" in Duke Nukem 3D
Image

And trying to "pretty" up every aspect of it and then incorporate other idea in game development, Duke Nukem Forever
Image

I also don't really care for detail if it can distract from the core. You can implement a lot of detail and believability without ruining priorities, but large blocks of unrelated flavor text on a shiny brass plaque in a delapidated memorial. One bit of popular media that's basically a master class on that is the TV show Archer. Here's a panel that you can read for ten seconds or an hour:

Image
These backgrounds are lovingly painted over 3d generated images to ensure perfect perspective and consistency between angles and giving them loving subtle textures and potential details. Up to and including the abstract painting behind Cheryl. There's also some concession details like how Cheryl's plaque is easily readable even though it would probably be hard to make out at that angle due to reflection etc.

It works because the figures in Archer are so well defined, stand out clearly due to be stylized and hence immediately draw in your attention (along with their props). When you're done looking at them your eyes can wander to appreciate the background, but even you don't get time for that the general aesthetic of the background sinks in immediately. It's an older than dirt trick in animation but it works in video games. You can see the evolution of it's use in the Borderlands Franchise.

Borderlands
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Borderlands 2
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Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel
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This is also why inconsistencies can disproportionately ruin an experience, kind of like Clipart.

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You're very much arguing from the stance of "less is more", which is unusual for DX considering its comprehensive kitchen sink design that resulted in many aspects being left unpolished. Still, a lot of your points are absolutely valid and yes, less can be more if more is just badly implemented, but I don't think that is the case for HDTP + New Vision in most respects.

It's not so much less is more as the need to respect the standard of the base product. I fully believe that the unpolished areas, minimalist graphics (even for the era) and basic assets are part of the concessions that had to be made not just for the sake of project management (a good topic today, rather than a perfect product never) and the inherent limitationon of a single CD and a lot of settings, props and voice acting.

Mods being done as personal practice of course, don't have to worry about this. You can do a mod to reskin and re-model your favourite character and people who also love that character will appreciate it regardless of what it does to the overall aesthetic. However, for a mod to be an overall improvement (which is what you want if you're going to package it in) you want it to take into account things like what prioritizing and maintaining consistency.

One of the most obvious quirks of HDTP for instance, is that Bob Page looks unimportant compared to Walton Simmons. This isn't a problem if you're just playing so you can experience the new visuals or something new, but it is a baffling quirk if you're going in expecting to experience the story similarly or more intensely than you did the first time (or a new player or one who never finished the original).

So rather than less is more, I'm in favour of embracing stylizing as a means of prioritizing. Do some things simply so you can do other things amazingly.


Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:14 am
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X-51

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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
wincenworks wrote:
One of the most obvious quirks of HDTP for instance, is that Bob Page looks unimportant compared to Walton Simmons. This isn't a problem if you're just playing so you can experience the new visuals or something new, but it is a baffling quirk if you're going in expecting to experience the story similarly or more intensely than you did the first time (or a new player or one who never finished the original).


Another silly criticism given the nature of things - you really can't compare commercial animations and video games done by multiple teams with millions of dollars of budget with an open-source project like HDTP which just takes free submissions from people willing to do it. With HDTP, all you can do is take what people are willing to do and put into the work. It's not like an open-source free project can raise a ton of money and hire the modelers to redo everything so it can be released all at once to satisfy the expectations of one who wants it changed over completely at once. Then when the new games come out, it's hard to get people to want to continue doing things when the newer brighter stuff is out.

If you're going to wait for someone to do all the resources (there's 8 characters done out of around 100), plus all the items in the world, you're going to be waiting forever. Especially since how the HDTP characters that have been done have already been slammed. There's two that have been done that hasn't been completed (Maggie Chow, Bob Page) because of such things, and this is why the feature exists that you can switch them on and off. An argument could be made that a lot of the HDTP characters change the *likenesses* of the characters. I hate the Gunther Hermann one for this reason, for instance.

But regardless, there's a fuck ton of work there to change all of them at once that really isn't being supported for various reasons that I've illustrated. But given that, you have to take the price (free) into account for what you get and what it would take. You got most of the world items and 8 characters for absolutely free, all of which have been done relatively well. Whether you like how they were done or not is subjective to you and the fact that it's multiple volunteer authors with different styles with no management you can't really force them into one style. I can't really argue that the artistry is complete crap like you seem on a mission to do. If you want more, you can always stake $30 million and hire a team to flush it all out within six months so the "style" matches, and I'm sure a lot of people would take you up on it as long as you keep the mod free.

Again, this is in the 60-70% of what you posted in your videos that have nothing to do with Revision. Again, HDTP has been out for 3 years plus now, and NOW it get slammed? The reason for that is something that definitely needs to be explored.

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Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:01 am
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MJ12
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
He tipped his fedora and registered on a practically dead forum (to which he apparently had no previous ties to) in order to make long proselytizing effort-posts.

What do you think?

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Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:24 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
I think that if you have a problem with his posts you should try to counter the arguments he presents, like how ggrotz and Cybernetic Pig have done, instead of strawmanning and using ad hominen(like tipping his fedora and making attempts to convert people to his opinion, when all he ever did was try to argue his opinion using a mixture of factual information and logical arguments).


Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:37 am
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Mole Person

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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
ggrotz wrote:
wincenworks wrote:
One of the most obvious quirks of HDTP for instance, is that Bob Page looks unimportant compared to Walton Simmons. This isn't a problem if you're just playing so you can experience the new visuals or something new, but it is a baffling quirk if you're going in expecting to experience the story similarly or more intensely than you did the first time (or a new player or one who never finished the original).


Another silly criticism given the nature of things - you really can't compare commercial animations and video games done by multiple teams with millions of dollars of budget with an open-source project like HDTP which just takes free submissions from people willing to do it. With HDTP, all you can do is take what people are willing to do and put into the work. It's not like an open-source free project can raise a ton of money and hire the modelers to redo everything so it can be released all at once to satisfy the expectations of one who wants it changed over completely at once. Then when the new games come out, it's hard to get people to want to continue doing things when the newer brighter stuff is out.

I absolutely agree. HDTP is going to be whatever people can do and thus that makes it great for people who want that particular stuff. Just like the Dating Sim, more realistic (and unrealistic) female armors and Thomas the Tank Engine Dragons for Skyrim; just like the put clothes on Quiet or swap Quiet for Hideo Kojima mod for MGSV:TPP; or the plethora of mods for VtM: Bloodlines that add missions, change outcomes of missions, etc.

Modders do stuff because they want to see it done. That doesn't mean that it's automatically good, automatically bad or automatically suitable for standard play.

Quote:
If you're going to wait for someone to do all the resources (there's 8 characters done out of around 100), plus all the items in the world, you're going to be waiting forever.

Indeed. Modding is a hobby.

Quote:
Especially since how the HDTP characters that have been done have already been slammed. There's two that have been done that hasn't been completed (Maggie Chow, Bob Page) because of such things, and this is why the feature exists that you can switch them on and off. An argument could be made that a lot of the HDTP characters change the *likenesses* of the characters. I hate the Gunther Hermann one for this reason, for instance.

An argument can be made for anything, the nature of the argument and the value of it is what matters. Why should Gunther's likeness be sacred but not Bob Page's status as looking more powerful and impressive than Walton Simmons?

Quote:
But regardless, there's a fuck ton of work there to change all of them at once that really isn't being supported for various reasons that I've illustrated. But given that, you have to take the price (free) into account for what you get and what it would take. You got most of the world items and 8 characters for absolutely free, all of which have been done relatively well.

If I made a mod that gave JC Denton snappy one liners, added strip bars to every level and a function to pee on people ala Postal it would be a shitload of work - if I gave it away for free it would not automatically mean it was good and worthy of celebration. Furthermore even if it was great and worthy of celebration it would still be worth challenging that to learn why it was great and how elements of it could be used in other projects.

Quote:
Whether you like how they were done or not is subjective to you and the fact that it's multiple volunteer authors with different styles with no management you can't really force them into one style. I can't really argue that the artistry is complete crap like you seem on a mission to do. If you want more, you can always stake $30 million and hire a team to flush it all out within six months so the "style" matches, and I'm sure a lot of people would take you up on it as long as you keep the mod free.

The issue is not the budget, the issue is the design principles. These remain consistent whether you have a budget of ninety bazillion dollars or a budget of nothing, it's why multi-million dollar projects still hire storyboard artists, why there's a pitch video and then a pilot for tv shows. It's why people make effects reels, why voice actors make demo videos, why people aspiring to work in games make indie games, etc. Demonstration of ability within limits, wins over people.

Quote:
Again, this is in the 60-70% of what you posted in your videos that have nothing to do with Revision. Again, HDTP has been out for 3 years plus now, and NOW it get slammed? The reason for that is something that definitely needs to be explored.

Everyone has a different percentage on this... probably because there's not a scientific measure. Why does HDTP get criticized by me now? Because I'm having to deal with it NOW. Generally speaking I don't care for HD mods/remakes (for all the reasons above) and I certainly don't care for the idea that this one automatically adds 50 quality points to DX by virtue of being there.

It's a partially complete visual update mod, not a magical update.


Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:16 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
wincenworks wrote:
I also don't really care for detail if it can distract from the core.


Sure thing; only add any form of content if it is worthwhile content. but I don't think HDTP & New Vision does distract in most respects. You were playing with the character models on which is the primary problem (but of course they can be disabled).

Quote:
Particularly because things like the shift from "functional and charming" in Duke Nukem 3D


"functional and charming" is true of DX + HDTP + New Vision in my opinion.
You're overstating the failings of these two mods. Both mods update many, many art assets, and criticism can only be given directly to a small portion of each.

Quote:
However, for a mod to be an overall improvement (which is what you want if you're going to package it in) you want it to take into account things like what prioritizing and maintaining consistency.


Absolutely. Making things look more consistent and polished with HDTP + New Vision is something that GMDX addresses to some degree.

Quote:
It's not so much less is more as the need to respect the standard of the base product. I fully believe that the unpolished areas, minimalist graphics (even for the era) and basic assets are part of the concessions that had to be made not just for the sake of project management (a good topic today, rather than a perfect product never) and the inherent limitationon of a single CD and a lot of settings, props and voice acting.


And the design priorities of the devs of course. As you can agree, graphics were quite obviously of the lowest priority for every LG-styled game. Metal Gear Solid 2 released around the same time as Deus Ex and was in a whole other league visually.
I see no problem with updating Deus Ex's look as long as the execution is good. Deus Ex looked bad out of necessity.
Part of the problem is HDTP simply never got finished, but things like visual weapon mods are far too significant to ignore.

ggrotz wrote:
Another silly criticism given the nature of things - you really can't compare commercial animations and video games done by multiple teams with millions of dollars of budget with an open-source project like HDTP which just takes free submissions from people willing to do it.


Of course you can. HDTP improves many assets put out by a professional team. Look at Morrowind now, which receives unending amounts of graphical attention. It's in a whole new league. It's just unfortunate the HDTP team fell apart and were not a little more fussy about the acceptance of some assets, such as the sawed-off shotgun.

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Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:17 am
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MJ12
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
@DevAnj: Actually, of all the current posters on this thread sans CyberP, he's actually the most qualified to review these mods due to the virtue of not having paid any attention to them before DXREV was released.

I think that the purest of DXREViews are from those who became aware of the mod only when/after it was released on Oct 13th 2015, and thus were not influenced by any of the previous builds, the DX Revision ModDB Meltdown (May 2015-Heat Death of the Universe), whatever I've ever said about anything (which you shouldn't pay attention to any way ;)) - among other things.

As a personal rule, I try to not comment on anyone else's reviews, thoughts and points as such, because everyone has their own opinions about anything and everything and that's the way it should always be. Life is full of people who just want to be vocal about everything, they can interact with these people for all I care.

I don't want things to have merely one or two opinions, I want 80 billion opinions. In this regard, whatever they may actually be doesn't concern or interest me, unless I'm in "creator mode" and intentionally looking for actual constructive criticism to improve my work.

But as I've mentioned several times before in the past 6 months, it took 15 years for the Deus Ex community to degenerate to the level of other gaming communities - which still genuinely bothers me - and thus the amount of valid and reasonable arguments diminished to almost nil and biased, attention-seeking and self-serving gamer shite drivel took its place. Suddenly, one of the most highly rated Deus Ex mods of all time - and their creators - became hated and blasphemous.

This took a toll on DXREV's devs, and I'm most regretful about that. REVDEVs put the mod on Steam because they genuinely thought it was a positive thing and would look impressive on their resumés. I still fully agree with their decision.

I, for one, would have acted differently. Hell, I even tried to get DXN on Steam for the sole purpose of removing the stable version from ModDB and rereleasing the mod on Steam in an even broken state just to annoy everyone due to their reactions to DXREV.

Hence, I will never ever tell what I really think about mods like Deus Ex: Revision or HDTP, because for me supporting the DXREV team against the unreasonable entitled gamer drivel feedback is way more important than what I think about anything (as it should be).

Children are usually taught that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and they shouldn't lash out at others for that reason. Eventually, they realize that "opinions cannot be argued as such, but facts cannot be argued under any circumstances!" and thus the eternal cycle of "I think that [x]" "That's just your opinion" "No, it's a fact!" "No, it's not!" starts and lasts until their deaths.

These days, the Internet is packed to brim with YouTube Superstars™ trying to present themselves as objective and unquestionable, thus (naturally) arguments have broken out as a result. There's nothing special about these people AND you may choose to like, hate, or verb them in any way you want.

So in this case, I'm 0% interested in what Kim has to say, 100% supportive of him expressing it, 100% sure that it's unbiased and pure compared to any feedback from anyone who had been aware of a "Deus Ex Revision" before Oct 13th, 100% amused that someone would still join a dead forum (of no relation to them before) to effort-post their points even further (to an audience of maybe 3) and 1000% invested in reminding people that he really is just like anyone else and you shouldn't take his thoughts to the heart due to his blunt way of expressing them.

Here's an ad hominem for you, though, DevAnj: You're only the second most annoying Deus Ex fan I've ever witnessed.

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Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:24 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
Since this has become a topic about HDTP/New Vision, I figured I would weigh in.

I think both mods have good things in them and there are quite a few scenes in the game where they look good. Yes, they aren't 1:1 authentic and the grittiness added to some New Vision textures and some artistic liberties taken with some objects by HDTP definitely make some areas convey a different feel from the original. Also when all the characters in HDTP are turned off, I think the rest of the objects fit in well enough, with some exceptions like the glock and the flamethrower. Yes, more care could have been taken while redoing the objects and high resolution textured objects do clash when right against low polygon ones, but in my experience that happens rarely.

That being said, I agree Deus Ex became the great game it is because the team behind it got their priorities right. They put gameplay, story and atmosphere over graphics, pretty architecture and fast paced gunplay, and for this it turned into a game that's remembered till today, a game with some shortcomings but still a very influential and memorable one.

@FastGamerr: I'm impressed to have earned that honour, but please tell me why I earned it.

I posted Kim's videos here only because I thought they had good criticism and because you gave an impression that the developers should only pay attention to people who like their mod. If that wasn't the case, I apologize. I myself don't want to rant on Revision anymore, I think ggrotz, Cybernetic Pig and Kim Wincen are more qualified to do that anyway. Besides, there are other Deus Ex mods I can enjoy, like 2027, GMDX, The Nameless Mod and recently Redsun 2020. I have seen that negative reviews of Revision on Steam have got lots of downvotes while positive reviews that don't say anything about the mod and instead waste space bashing people who don't like it as "elitist virgins", "crybabies" and such have got lots of upvotes. That combined with your aggressive attitude here and elsewhere sent the wrong signals to me.

Also I don't recall him ever presenting himself as objective and unquestionable, he merely showed what he doesn't like in Revision and explained why, and I found that most of his points were well argued and not very subjective, including stuff like a NSF terrorist sitting mere inches away from a UNATCO bot or the absurd placement of a makeshift hollowed crate with two terrorists and a burning barrel inside when they raided the island "a hour ago".

FastGamerr wrote:
But as I've mentioned several times before in the past 6 months, it took 15 years for the Deus Ex community to degenerate to the level of other gaming communities - which still genuinely bothers me - and thus the amount of valid and reasonable arguments diminished to almost nil and biased, attention-seeking and self-serving gamer shite drivel took its place.


Also this is not true. From what I've seen, the Deus Ex community was always a bit prickly. Remember the backlash HDTP models got and the initial reactions of many people to The Nameless Mod's premise? I think the Deus Ex community was always as good/bad as it's now, it's just that some controversial decisions like the Steam exclusive release allowed the worst elements to come out in the open.


Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:30 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
wincenworks wrote:
An argument can be made for anything, the nature of the argument and the value of it is what matters. Why should Gunther's likeness be sacred but not Bob Page's status as looking more powerful and impressive than Walton Simmons?


It's one thing to argue that the way something is depicted is not faithful. I bring up Gunther because I believe the HDTP model renders him differently than the other one. I'll explain by using Homer Simpson. It's one thing that the art was updated like in your screen shots. It's another that the update turns Homer Simpson from a fat balding man into a thin muscle bound adonis. It doesn't happen. But to a large extent, there is nothing remarkably different about the HDTP assets than the standard ones. Of course, the problem you have in updating low-res visuals is that certain artistic liberties have to be taken to fill in the details which may or may not be outside the realm of other things, which you slammed like the certificates in New Vision (further addressed below). But more or less, your total sum of "criticism" amounts to "I think the artwork in HDTP is shit." Fine, you don't like it. Several others happen to like it. It's just like any kind of art in the world. Note your comparison I quoted below, which pretty much says it.

Quote:
If I made a mod that gave JC Denton snappy one liners, added strip bars to every level and a function to pee on people ala Postal it would be a shitload of work - if I gave it away for free it would not automatically mean it was good and worthy of celebration.


Moving on:
Quote:
The issue is not the budget, the issue is the design principles. These remain consistent whether you have a budget of ninety bazillion dollars or a budget of nothing, it's why multi-million dollar projects still hire storyboard artists, why there's a pitch video and then a pilot for tv shows. It's why people make effects reels, why voice actors make demo videos, why people aspiring to work in games make indie games, etc. Demonstration of ability within limits, wins over people.


And here you demonstrate you have absolutely no idea how open-source projects work, rendering much of what you have written to be moot. I believe Jonas once described it as "herding cats", and it's not far from accurate. When you don't have any effective control over your team members (i.e. you're not paying them), you really can't control the work that they produce. In volunteer efforts, all you can do is take what people are willing to do to the best of their ability, say "thank you" and move on. You can cast a vision as to what a playable mod is going to be or whatever the project happens to be, but you can't stop people from walking with their stuff if you don't give them a voice. Then if you just take their submission and call it "shit" and delete it, there's no guarantee the work can ever be redone by another and you create an immense lack of goodwill with anyone else that might be providing work. Not to mention any reactions the community might bring during development, which is one reason why HDTP hasn't gotten as many submissions as it might have otherwise. Note: When goodwill is your only currency, you have to be zealous in guarding it.

While coding bounds are more common, due to the nature of the job (there's really only one definition of "spell check" for instance), you really can't apply similar things to art work, especially in a volunteer environment. Most people aren't going to offer "shit" (which you seem to think HDTP is), but most artists are going to tell a producer for a volunteer mod to go fuck off and take their stuff if said producer does what you propose. Take note, there are 3 in this thread, and at least 4 on this board who have much more experience in such matters as you. Unless there's something you're not telling us?

Quote:
Generally speaking I don't care for HD mods/remakes (for all the reasons above) and I certainly don't care for the idea that this one automatically adds 50 quality points to DX by virtue of being there.


You've made this abundantly clear. As was said up above, why do you have such an axe to grind that you come here and keep at it when everyone quite clearly knows your opinion by now? As for other legitimate criticisms (the nonsense Chinese and TNM ad in New Vision, the character models in HDTP), don't you think those haven't been fleshed out after three years that you need to come with your all-knowing wisdom and tell us how the world should work?

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Of course you can. HDTP improves many assets put out by a professional team. Look at Morrowind now, which receives unending amounts of graphical attention. It's in a whole new league. It's just unfortunate the HDTP team fell apart and were not a little more fussy about the acceptance of some assets, such as the sawed-off shotgun.


An improvement only because they happened to be higher res assets - notably what exists in HDTP couldn't work on machines that were made back when DX was put out. Whether they were "better" assets or not is the whole issue of the OP. As for your last sentence, I explained that up above and in my first comment. It's not so much that it "fell apart" as life happened. I understand most of the original members are now professional graphics artists (HDTP being an art folio thing for them). The rest are moving on with life in other ways. It happens with things. Of course, they lost a fair amount of goodwill with other possible contributing artists over the character models, but I wasn't around much then to know where the source of that came from precisely. Just know it happened.

FastGamerr wrote:
Children are usually taught that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and they shouldn't lash out at others for that reason. Eventually, they realize that "opinions cannot be argued as such, but facts cannot be argued under any circumstances!" and thus the eternal cycle of "I think that [x]" "That's just your opinion" "No, it's a fact!" "No, it's not!" starts and lasts until their deaths.

These days, the Internet is packed to brim with YouTube Superstars™ trying to present themselves as objective and unquestionable, thus (naturally) arguments have broken out as a result. There's nothing special about these people AND you may choose to like, hate, or verb them in any way you want.


I would say that's where most of this is coming from. I think that screen shot I put in the other thread is pretty illustrative of where "facts" lie in such a thing ("Wait there's this open area in the airfield and I can't open the gate and explore! Waaah!", too bad it repeats itself in DX and about every other mod out there). A lot of the reaction is coming from more a function of attitude than anything related to any real quality issues. Interestingly such attitudes come with the rise of platforms like Youtube and the like where idiots that happen to be entertaining get their asses kissed (hey, it's PEWWWWWDIEPIE!) and then believe their own hype. Indeed, Kim has the right to his own opinion, but everyone else has the right to theirs, too, including calling him in certain matters.

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Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:46 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
FastGamerr wrote:
But as I've mentioned several times before in the past 6 months, it took 15 years for the Deus Ex community to degenerate to the level of other gaming communities

I know right? Developers name calling people and lying.
Developers mad because they don't get unlimited praise.
Developers ignoring facts and proceeding to mock other people.

It really took 15 years for the Deus ex community to degenerate. Developers releasing stuff on steam only. Developers blaming the players for their mistakes. Developers using the word entitled like EA/Bioware when their games were (and still are) rushed, and they gave you stuff like 3 endings which the main difference were the color HUE. Developers sucking up to other developers.

When people were promised something by the devs, and they don't do it or do it differently, they are indeed entitled to those promises.
Pretending that being entitled to old promises is bad, really tells you how shitty of a developer you are.


Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:51 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
ggrotz wrote:
And here you demonstrate you have absolutely no idea how open-source projects work, rendering much of what you have written to be moot. I believe Jonas once described it as "herding cats", and it's not far from accurate. When you don't have any effective control over your team members (i.e. you're not paying them), you really can't control the work that they produce. In volunteer efforts, all you can do is take what people are willing to do to the best of their ability, say "thank you" and move on.


Or, you can refuse it because it isn't good enough...what does HDTP's sawed off add for example? It's worse than the vanilla one.
Personally, I would have said go home and come back when you can produce something better (politely, ofc). I would accept no less in GMDX if people actually gave enough shits to even offer any help. But you're an exception of course and for that I'm thankful.

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Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:59 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
Yeah there are ways and means you can turn down someone's work while remaining polite and not insulting them. It's definitely understandable that free mods are going to have many challenges by virtue of doing work for no financial payoff and that often they rely upon volunteers willing to do work for free and so can't afford to piss them off, but it doesn't mean everything put out has to be accepted. For instance, I'm writing the story and readables for a Thief fan mission now and the guy making the mission has his own vision for it, which I strive to follow. There have been many disagreements between him and me over the subject matter I wrote, yet they have always been polite and easily resolved.

As for your example about the La Guardia gate, I don't think it's as strong an example as several of the honeypots in Revision. For starters, there are no objects placed behind it to fool the player into thinking they can go there, and I think the way it's placed makes it clear it's only for scenery. Also the frequency of such places in Deus Ex was lower from my memory.


Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:08 pm
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
Indeed. Mods do not have to be notably flawed providing there is people insane enough to put the time in and have the talent. Updating all of Deus Ex's models is a huge undertaking though and unfortunately HDTP will never be fulfilled, but I'd prefer that than a load of low quality or extremely inconsistent assets being added to it to "finish" it.

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Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:22 pm
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
Cybernetic pig wrote:
Or, you can refuse it because it isn't good enough...what does HDTP's sawed off add for example? It's worse than the vanilla one.


Since you brought it up, I had to go do a comparison since I don't usually pick up the sawed-off.

Attachment:
File comment: Top is vanilla, bottom is HDTP
so-shotgun comparison.jpg
so-shotgun comparison.jpg [ 78.13 KiB | Viewed 7831 times ]


This one is indeed confusing, and I'm not arguing that all of HDTP resources are great, but it does add over the vanilla. Looking at the original, it's been made pretty obvious by a few parties that it's modeled after a .410 pump action shotgun (closest image I could find). While it looks better, the problem with it is a "nonsense" kind of one akin to what Winchen is saying (rightly) about Revision itself (starting with the sight on the end of the barrel which would be gone if it was a genuine sawed-off shottie, as while it's a common shotgun, the problem is what is depicted is *not*).

Furthermore, it would be nice to know the design decisions behind the sawed-off shottie as the HDTP one seems to be different and closer to the pump gun of TNM, yet maybe under the directive to make it with similar colors? Looking at it close is bewildering as it seems to be modeled after a different gun entirely. Of course, most of that was on PlanetDeusEx, including a real-deal guy posting about the weapons (don't know if he was just a collector or weapons specialist but he posted a damned good review of the weapons as depicted in vanilla there).

DevAnj wrote:
Yeah there are ways and means you can turn down someone's work while remaining polite and not insulting them.


Indeed. The problem you have is one of ego. As I tried to explain, art is incredibly subjective and quite easy to get camps opposed at one another hard based on friendships. This thread on Maggie Chow is a great example. Or the best one about how this kind of stuff stirs up shit storms:

_Alex_ wrote:
The Anna Navarre skin im working on is like 99% finished, but I haven't showed it around the forums for the reason that there will be a shitstorm of people finding ways to poke holes in my work. Make her look more like Angelina Jolie, NO make her look more like Winona Ryder, NO make her look like Ben Affleck. Everyone's got an opinion on who or what looks *right*


Note the thread topic itself is about the JC Denton HDTP character skin. The problem with art in such a project is you're never going to satisfy everyone all the time and will always send someone away butthurt. (I didn't bother to look for it, but reactions to Navarre and Nicolette have been noted, simply seeming out of butt hurt fandom) When an artist faces this kind of crap, it's hard enough, but when you turn down something and the person says "hey wait a minute, what's wrong with it?" and have their camps of supporters that think it's just fine (the inevitable next step is releasing the turned-down image themselves), you're just asking for a rat's nest of trouble.

Someone like Jonas, Trestkon, or FastGamerr who have actually done mods with new texture content could comment on this with more authority. All I can do is point at what seems to be happening in the forum posts I've read, without knowledge of the back-channel chatter.

DevAnj wrote:
As for your example about the La Guardia gate, I don't think it's as strong an example as several of the honeypots in Revision. For starters, there are no objects placed behind it to fool the player into thinking they can go there, and I think the way it's placed makes it clear it's only for scenery. Also the frequency of such places in Deus Ex was lower from my memory.


How do I not know there are items back there if I can't go back there and look? Of course the obvious ultimate "honeypot" is Liberty Island being closed off to you in future missions - Carter's armory is another example, which happens to have ammo and other things. But need I recall the argument of Winchen's was that "it exists and I can't go explore it" more than anything of a functional state that has any real concern.

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Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:47 pm
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
ggrotz wrote:
When an artist faces this kind of crap, it's hard enough, but when you turn down something and the person says "hey wait a minute, what's wrong with it?" and have their camps of supporters that think it's just fine (the inevitable next step is releasing the turned-down image themselves), you're just asking for a rat's nest of trouble.


Well they can release their work if they want as long as the project lead hasn't told them to keep everything hush hush. This won't mean that what is shown will make it in, infact it can be explained as and should be considered as a demonstration of a work in progress. There are many mods which showed off assets that don't make it into the final product, and letting them do it is fine as long as it's made clear it's work in progress.

ggrotz wrote:
How do I not know there are items back there if I can't go back there and look? Of course the obvious ultimate "honeypot" is Liberty Island being closed off to you in future missions - Carter's armory is another example, which happens to have ammo and other things. But need I recall the argument of Winchen's was that "it exists and I can't go explore it" more than anything of a functional state that has any real concern.


Well it doesn't show that there are any items in the area through the gate grills, and if you climb any of the crates around in the actual map it's clear that there is nothing there.

As for Liberty Island, why would JC want to go back there? It's an island he would have explored the first time around when he had to capture the NSF leader. I certainly didn't expect that there would be anything worthwhile there or that it would even be explorable after the first level.

Sam Carter's armoury doesn't have ammunition or visible items in the first three times you go to UNATCO HQ besides the repairbot, and I wouldn't try to break in there because of a repairbot especially since one already exists outside in the compound on most of the visits. Besides, it has an actual payoff the final time you're in UNATCO HQ, unlike lot of the "honeypots" in Revision.

I know that parts and pieces of levels can be shown outside the level boundaries as scenery, the trick is in making it clear it's scenery and not making it look like it's an area the player has any hope of visiting. Of course this is a bit complex topic.


Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:17 pm
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