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Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread) 
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UNATCO
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
DevAnj wrote:
Sam Carter's armoury doesn't have ammunition or visible items in the first three times you go to UNATCO HQ besides the repairbot


Not true.

2x Crates, 2x 10mm Ammo, 2x Medkit and a nanokey.


Image

Why wouldn't it have any ammo there? It's the armory.


Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:18 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
ggrotz wrote:
Attachment:
so-shotgun comparison.jpg



There isn't much subjectivity to it I'm afraid. I did a poll on moddb as to whether I should replace the HDTP one with the vanilla one, there wasn't a single vote in favor of the HDTP one. And thus, it is now removed (I would have probably removed it regardless of votes because I really don't like it either way). The subjectivity is usually in the finer details. If HDTP made the sawed off into a penis shotgun model it would be universally blasted aside from an oddball who thought it was funny or something.

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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
ggrotz wrote:
It's one thing to argue that the way something is depicted is not faithful. I bring up Gunther because I believe the HDTP model renders him differently than the other one. I'll explain by using Homer Simpson. It's one thing that the art was updated like in your screen shots. It's another that the update turns Homer Simpson from a fat balding man into a thin muscle bound adonis. It doesn't happen.

Are you able to offer any actual details behind these distinctions? Information that people can use to form their own judgements?

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But to a large extent, there is nothing remarkably different about the HDTP assets than the standard ones. Of course, the problem you have in updating low-res visuals is that certain artistic liberties have to be taken to fill in the details which may or may not be outside the realm of other things, which you slammed like the certificates in New Vision (further addressed below).

I couldn't find the bit where you talk about the certificates in New Vision.

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But more or less, your total sum of "criticism" amounts to "I think the artwork in HDTP is shit." Fine, you don't like it. Several others happen to like it. It's just like any kind of art in the world. Note your comparison I quoted below, which pretty much says it.

If I made a mod that gave JC Denton snappy one liners, added strip bars to every level and a function to pee on people ala Postal it would be a shitload of work - if I gave it away for free it would not automatically mean it was good and worthy of celebration.

And yet it seems you have no way to disagree with this statement or explain why issues in New Vision such as the certificates are issues.

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And here you demonstrate you have absolutely no idea how open-source projects work, rendering much of what you have written to be moot.

Visual theory and project management don't work in Open Source Theory? I'm sure this will come as a shock to the people who worked on UFO: Alien Invasion, also the numerous Vampire the Masquerades: Bloodlines patches.

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I believe Jonas once described it as "herding cats", and it's not far from accurate. When you don't have any effective control over your team members (i.e. you're not paying them), you really can't control the work that they produce.

In that scenario nobody is responsible for the outcome and nobody should be praised when it turns out well, or blamed when it turns out bad. I however, think it's rather insulting to pretend that fan projects are essentially a crap shoot.

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In volunteer efforts, all you can do is take what people are willing to do to the best of their ability, say "thank you" and move on. You can cast a vision as to what a playable mod is going to be or whatever the project happens to be, but you can't stop people from walking with their stuff if you don't give them a voice. Then if you just take their submission and call it "shit" and delete it, there's no guarantee the work can ever be redone by another and you create an immense lack of goodwill with anyone else that might be providing work. Not to mention any reactions the community might bring during development, which is one reason why HDTP hasn't gotten as many submissions as it might have otherwise. Note: When goodwill is your only currency, you have to be zealous in guarding it.

Wait are we talking volunteer efforts here or open-source? Because those are not the same thing and you should not conflate them.

Paizo's Pathfinder is a commercial project using an Open Source system (D20) made by Wizards of the Coast. Both of those are for profit companies with budgets. Super Meat Boy is an indie game made by two dudes who agreed to joint ownership and worked together due to a shared vision. There are countless projects out there made by a single person and given out for free.

Also while you are correct that saying "it's shit, do it again" will result in people not working for you - this applies to paid professionals as well. Hence why I wrote an essay on the visual theory and factors that lead me to believe that HDTP and NewVision are not arbitrary updates to the graphics, and hence their flaws should be considered as well as their benefits.

Other people are free to disagree, counter with examples they think contradict this, question or argue with a theory of their own - but I really don't see the benefit of claiming that all criticism that doesn't equate to "it's the best ever, use it all the time" is automatically code for "it's shit".

Another good way to lose good will is to spoil the work of some by setting it alongside the work of others. If you have a team of three people with different tasks - the people who work on the engine, mechanics, and AI are probably going to be a little upset if they find out the remaining person who was supposed to work on aesthetics made the intro and general game so eye-gouging that nobody took it seriously. Likewise if the graphics guy re-invents whole levels and finds out that nobody bothered to play to them because the game crashed so often and the AI was impossible to deal with - probably not going to score high on the good will.

It's herding cats because there is no formula to success, you have to adapt your own approach as best you can and try to keep everything together. Not just attack everyone who criticizes it and tell them it's their fault things are hard.

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While coding bounds are more common, due to the nature of the job (there's really only one definition of "spell check" for instance), you really can't apply similar things to art work, especially in a volunteer environment. Most people aren't going to offer "shit" (which you seem to think HDTP is), but most artists are going to tell a producer for a volunteer mod to go fuck off and take their stuff if said producer does what you propose. Take note, there are 3 in this thread, and at least 4 on this board who have much more experience in such matters as you. Unless there's something you're not telling us?

There's a lot of things I'm not telling you, mostly because I consider it rude to barge onto a forum and post an essay on things people don't care about and that don't help anyone (information about myself) when you could post something that might be interesting and useful to people either now or in the future.

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Generally speaking I don't care for HD mods/remakes (for all the reasons above) and I certainly don't care for the idea that this one automatically adds 50 quality points to DX by virtue of being there.

You've made this abundantly clear. As was said up above, why do you have such an axe to grind that you come here and keep at it when everyone quite clearly knows your opinion by now? As for other legitimate criticisms (the nonsense Chinese and TNM ad in New Vision, the character models in HDTP), don't you think those haven't been fleshed out after three years that you need to come with your all-knowing wisdom and tell us how the world should work?

I tend to believe that it is considered polite to back up one's opinions with information so that people can assess whether they agree, disagree, partially agree or don't know but want to go look up more information before they form an opinion of their own.

Quote:
FastGamerr wrote:
Children are usually taught that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and they shouldn't lash out at others for that reason. Eventually, they realize that "opinions cannot be argued as such, but facts cannot be argued under any circumstances!" and thus the eternal cycle of "I think that [x]" "That's just your opinion" "No, it's a fact!" "No, it's not!" starts and lasts until their deaths.

These days, the Internet is packed to brim with YouTube Superstars™ trying to present themselves as objective and unquestionable, thus (naturally) arguments have broken out as a result. There's nothing special about these people AND you may choose to like, hate, or verb them in any way you want.

I would say that's where most of this is coming from. I think that screen shot I put in the other thread is pretty illustrative of where "facts" lie in such a thing ("Wait there's this open area in the airfield and I can't open the gate and explore! Waaah!", too bad it repeats itself in DX and about every other mod out there). A lot of the reaction is coming from more a function of attitude than anything related to any real quality issues. Interestingly such attitudes come with the rise of platforms like Youtube and the like where idiots that happen to be entertaining get their asses kissed (hey, it's PEWWWWWDIEPIE!) and then believe their own hype. Indeed, Kim has the right to his own opinion, but everyone else has the right to theirs, too, including calling him in certain matters.

You are of course, correct. However, in the spirit of productive conversation could we perhaps focus on the topic of this thread rather than opinions of one another?

ggrotz wrote:
This one is indeed confusing, and I'm not arguing that all of HDTP resources are great, but it does add over the vanilla. Looking at the original, it's been made pretty obvious by a few parties that it's modeled after a .410 pump action shotgun (closest image I could find).

A 12 gauge shotgun (just checked the flavor text to confirm) is modeled off a .410? What?
Pretty sure it's a hybrid of the Remington Model 870 with a verticle foregrip and a Franchi SPAS-12 because they're iconic shotguns (both 12 gauge) and they wanted it to look futury.

Quote:
While it looks better, the problem with it is a "nonsense" kind of one akin to what Winchen is saying (rightly) about Revision itself (starting with the sight on the end of the barrel which would be gone if it was a genuine sawed-off shottie, as while it's a common shotgun, the problem is what is depicted is *not*).

Also that's not my family name so I don't know why you insist on typing it like that.

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Someone like Jonas, Trestkon, or FastGamerr who have actually done mods with new texture content could comment on this with more authority. All I can do is point at what seems to be happening in the forum posts I've read, without knowledge of the back-channel chatter.

So wait, why are you lecturing me like you are the authority?

Quote:
How do I not know there are items back there if I can't go back there and look? Of course the obvious ultimate "honeypot" is Liberty Island being closed off to you in future missions - Carter's armory is another example, which happens to have ammo and other things. But need I recall the argument of Winchen's was that "it exists and I can't go explore it" more than anything of a functional state that has any real concern.
[/quote]
Here's an idea - just copy paste my forum handle (wincenworks). Double click to select, then Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V. Boom. Done.

Also, yes, you do need to recall the argument before you can so defiantly criticize it. What part of Sam Carter's armory led you to believe that you could stack boxes and climb over the top? What part of Sam being the Quartermaster and hence responsible for distributing UNATCO supplies as per policy, orders and his own discretion led you to believe you could just ask him to sell you stuff? Did you even notice what side of the cage Sam is on?

Trasher wrote:
DevAnj wrote:
Sam Carter's armoury doesn't have ammunition or visible items in the first three times you go to UNATCO HQ besides the repairbot


Not true.

2x Crates, 2x 10mm Ammo, 2x Medkit and a nanokey.

Okay, so seriously? Do you never actually play the levels - just open them up in the editor? Because that explains a whole lot about Revision.


Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:27 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
I must have forgotten those things were there in the armoury, thanks for reminding me.


Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:30 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
wincenworks wrote:
Okay, so seriously? Do you never actually play the levels - just open them up in the editor? Because that explains a whole lot about Revision.


Eh? What's the problem? The fact that the Holy Game also has honeypots? You know, those same things you call bad game designing in Revision? I admit that I overdid that regarding the loot you cannot get in Hell's Kitchen(end of the main road and smugglers) - but hey, lesson learned. They're ought to get fixed.

As for your question, I have played Revision through about 10 times, mostly on realistic difficulty. The original? Way more than that.


Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:29 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
Trasher wrote:
wincenworks wrote:
Okay, so seriously? Do you never actually play the levels - just open them up in the editor? Because that explains a whole lot about Revision.


Eh? What's the problem?

The fact that you don't seem to consider player perspective and the experience of getting there to be an important part of the area. Which would explain why the level design in Hell's Kitchen contradicts all the dialogue, why there's a sniper rifle lying in a point that makes you play Daredevil to get to it but ultimately has no payoff (and nobody to snipe), why there's indestructible police tape directly across from destructible boards, etc.

Quote:
The fact that the Holy Game also has honeypots?

The Holy Game was made in the 80s, this is Deus Ex... which I've mentioned in this thread, and the videos, and the other thread - had problems.

I've also just posted why they aren't the same.

Quote:
You know, those same things you call bad game designing in Revision? I admit that I overdid that regarding the loot you cannot get in Hell's Kitchen(end of the main road and smugglers) - but hey, lesson learned. They're ought to get fixed.

I call them bad design in literally anything, just Revision had the most of them that I've seen since the 90s.

Quote:
As for your question, I have played Revision through about 10 times, mostly on realistic difficulty. The original? Way more than that.

Then how did you not notice that the directions to Smuggler's place were now completely assbackwards wrong?


Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:53 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
Don't forget, Trasher, if there's any truth or even a shade of legitimacy to his comments, other people must have expressed the same thoughts as well (whether on Steam, ModDB, here, or anywhere else).

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Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:23 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
"Truth is not a function of populism."

Also feel free to read some of the good negative reviews on Steam, or this thread: http://steamcommunity.com/app/397550/di ... 942777456/ .


Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:07 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
And conversely, the lack of popular support doesn't indicate truth. I bet there are more interesting discussions on relativity and absolutes all over the web and literature. ;) Anyway, the arguments on these forums are cycling in the same way as the ones on ModDB are (or every other argument anywhere on the Internet, tbh).

More importantly, I've ran out of old unanswered posts of mine to delete so that I could retain my post count at 222, so I'll make this post my last. [EDIT Jan 8th 2016: I LIED]

As a reply to DevAnj's post right below this one, I'm only going to comment on Kim's observations in this post, as I've already stated that I don't have any need or interest in commenting on anyone's thoughts as such. But on this post I'll have to make an exception in my policy for the sake of an example.

If one questionable person makes note of an issue, you can safely ignore it. If five people make note of the same issue, and four of them are proper civilized individuals and one of them remains questionable, then it's safe to say that the issue can be taken into proper consideration (whether it's a clearly subjective one like the look of a certificate texture, or a real one like "in-game dialogue instructions don't match with the architecture").

Everyone's a critic these days and everyone's allowed to criticize anything. All I want is for Trasher to realize that he doesn't do himself any good by trying to interact with Kim in any way. I just wish that Trasher (and Björn, for that matter) would finally join me on the "cold, heartless, hateful bastard" side, but my attempts over the years have all failed in this regard - and only now I've come to accept it. :)

And lastly, to paraphrase Tite Kubo:

If you have the talent to create something more interesting than Deus Ex: Revision, you should become a modder right away. If it's interesting, it will definitely be more successful than Deus Ex: Revision.

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Last edited by FastGamerr on Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:10 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
So what are you even trying to say? That Wincen is lying because not many people share such an extreme opinion of the mod(even though going by Steam reviews, the most popular outlet for this mod, it got a comparitively mixed reception when compared to stuff like highly anticipated games or even mods like the Just Cause 3 multiplayer mod) ? You do realize that Gallileo Gallei was punished by the church and his discovery not accepted by the public, even though it was the truth?

Also there are atleast 3 or more people on this board supporting Wincen's position on Revision, kdawgg, ggrotz, me and possibly Cybernetic Pig. Is that not enough for you?

I'm going to say this again: you have a problem with his posts, try countering his arguments. ggrotz and Cybernetic Pig both have done so.

Trying to pull the old: "Don't criticize the food unless you're a cook argument" eh? Well, here's some news for you, I'm trying to be a level maker for the original Thief games, you can head over to TTLG to check what I've been making, and it's upto you to like it, hate it or be neutral to it.

I don't see what's so questionable with Kim besides that he may be a bit too harsh on the mod.

Also did you know that often scientists have to prove hypothesis by themselves? How would they do it if people kept dismissing them because their hypothesis was "questionable"? That's right, by backing it up with logic.

The implications of your posts are also disturbing, since every time you've insisted that they take criticism from "better" people, you have implied people who don't like the mod as much as "worse" people and told them to ignore their opinions. That is very dangerous for any artist who wants to improve themselves to do. Sometimes the best critiques are the ones that are hidden among harsh words.


Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:17 am
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
FastGamerr wrote:
If you have the talent to create something more interesting than Deus Ex: Revision, you should become a modder right away. If it's interesting, it will definitely be more successful than Deus Ex: Revision.


Modder here, making mod with zero "success" (of your measure, i.e popularity). I guess it isn't interesting :(
I guess your right. It definitely seems that way as I'm probably going to have to delay release due to a lack of testers, and there's always been little interest shown.

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Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:23 pm
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
Cybernetic pig wrote:
Modder here, making mod with zero "success" (of your measure, i.e popularity). I guess it isn't interesting :(

I guess your right. It definitely seems that way as I'm probably going to have to delay release due to a lack of testers, and there's always been little interest shown.

(Alright, managed to find one more ancient post to remove to make sure my post count stays at 222, since I felt that replying to CyberP is actually important and productive.)

I'm not sure what your definition of success is, but I thought GMDX was already one of the most successful DX mods of all time (having received coverage from mainstream gaming media, ModDB awards, critical acclaim in the community, etc.). But those are just my observations as an outsider.

It's also a shame about the lack of testers, but I guess it's the normal deal for Deus Ex mods (other than the juggernauts like TNM or DXREV); no interest in playtesting the mods (or just grabbing the mod files and disappearing) and then complaining if any problems arise afterwards. I'd help you out, but I don't play Deus Ex anymore.

Carry on!

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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
That's true, it has received some acclaim, but it's really not popular at all sadly, when it certainly should be at least middleweight. Nihilum is nearing +1000% of GMDX's download count and they released around the same time for example. If DXREV is a juggernaut, Nihilum is middleweight and GMDX is light/barely on the scale. I've always wanted support to be able to cover more fields of design, a mod needs a community to support it, which GMDX doesn't have. Now I'm about done with it and it's too late to fulfill my true design vision. What a shame. Knowing me I'll probably get bored with normal life & continue polishing and refining anyway instead of actually focusing on more beneficial projects. It's really damn fun but so very time consuming and draining, I'm sure you agree.

Why aren't you gaming anymore anyways? A gamer giving up games? Lies!

Edit: oh wait, he's keeping his post count at 222 for whatever reason. Never mind then.

Quote:
I'd help you out, but I don't play Deus Ex anymore.


This right here is confirmation of the lack of interest. You just played DX last month! (I accurately assume).

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Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:46 pm
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
Don't worry, I'm sure this time if news websites report on the v8 release, it will get a fair amount of fame. So far what has been driving people away from it was how it gave the impression of being a mod oriented towards a hardcore Deus Ex fanbase I feel. All that should change now as you've started putting effort into marketing it as a general overhaul of Deus Ex with robust gameplay, not to mention making the game actually lower in difficulty at the lower levels in several ways.

As for FastGamerr, all I will say is I never knew having opinions on a mod would lead to such rifts. That's where all this drama started, I noticed FastGamerr saying that the Revision developers should not "step down to their level" and that they had got better, actually constructive criticism from elsewhere which highly implied that they should not listen to people who didn't like Revision, so I pointed out that he had never criticized Revision himself so him saying that was ironic and then I linked the videos since I thought they were examples of good criticism. However it seems there was a misunderstanding as he said "If you've found someone sharing your opinion with facts, I'm happy for you." in a tone that seemed sarcastic, so I felt he was just trying to push away negative criticism of the mod which led me to becoming aggressive. That led to all the drama there with mkaelus, and since I pointed Kim Wincen to that thread here(who also happens to be my acquiantance) he decided to join to defend his videos. I hope that solves that mystery.

Before I expressed my feelings on the delays, odd silence, and the mod itself I had normal conversations with him. I don't like the attitude of him labelling anyone who doesn't like Revision and criticizes it as "questionable" and not worth listening to. Anyway, let's end this here. I don't like it, he likes it, let him enjoy.


Last edited by DevAnj on Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:18 pm
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Post Re: Stylization vs Detail (continued for the Revision thread
Well it seems to be keeping Wincen happy so far. I consider that a huge success!

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