Off Topic Productions

That is a nice piece of trivia but that's not a good reason to maintain the hollow mags.

Also the design of Andy and Larry are completely impractical in reality. With the mag actually acting like a large revolver, requiring a motor ontop of it to rotate it after every shot. The operator has to then unload and reload each slot.

I don't like it how the original dev team did not put more effort in finding and fixing these logical errors for the sake of sci-fi-ness (see the weapon properties topic for more nastyness).

akmatov wrote:[…]it looks as if they were created by several different people (default properties are very disorganized) none of whom had much of any idea about weapons. I think my favorite two are the 10mm Pistol with a six-round magazine - the term "six shooter" refers to a revolver - (the 10mm Glock 20 - a good representative modern pistol - has a 15-round magazine) and the 7.62mm Assault Gun with a hit value of less than a third of the 10mm pistol. These values are so wrong as to be weird.

EDIT #2: Not to mention that the 10 mm pistol is supposed to be a Glock.

The closest real example of an Assault Shotgun that is also close to the design ingame, with the exception of the hollow mag is the USAS-12.




I'll be using this as inspiration when I redesign the Assault Shotgun for the mod. The result will maintain a similar form factor to the vanilla weapon, won't have the long barrel as shown in the above images, and also won't have the hollowed mag. I think this is a good compromise and still achieves the design mandate. Also funny note, I'm perplexed how the cocking lever on the USAS doesn't break operators thumbs and fingers.

Bird wrote:I don't like it how the original dev team did not put more effort in finding and fixing these logical errors for the sake of sci-fi-ness (see the weapon properties topic for more nastyness).

akmatov wrote:[…]it looks as if they were created by several different people (default properties are very disorganized) none of whom had much of any idea about weapons. I think my favorite two are the 10mm Pistol with a six-round magazine - the term "six shooter" refers to a revolver - (the 10mm Glock 20 - a good representative modern pistol - has a 15-round magazine) and the 7.62mm Assault Gun with a hit value of less than a third of the 10mm pistol. These values are so wrong as to be weird.

EDIT #2: Not to mention that the 10 mm pistol is supposed to be a Glock.

Yeah I had some of these issues in the back of my mind too. As long as the game remains balanced, fun and CP agrees, we should fix these in GMDX.

I also have plans for a redesign of the 10mm pistol too. I don't think using a Glock is a good aesthetic fit and would think that something like a Sig Sauer P320 would be a much more fitting choice. Though not an exact copy of it, even though as it is, it's basically perfect.



Edit: Updated URL to first image, size was reduced by host.

I think it would make more sense if UNATCO agents were issued with different sidearms, like the one you posted below.

I think that the greatest strength of my hollowed-mag idea is the fact that if the trigger is place within the hollow area, it can maintain a perfect balance regardless of how many shots have been fired. This also necessitates a fixed-length stock with some springs to dampen the recoil from firing, but since we aren't really designing a firearm and only the exterior model of it - I think it's good and fits the cyberpunk setting.

The USAS-12 and the AA-12 are nice, but maybe the Pancor Jackhammer is a better shotgun to use a base - it's also way more distinctive than the other options.

Made in China wrote:I think that the greatest strength of my hollowed-mag idea is the fact that if the trigger is place within the hollow area, it can maintain a perfect balance regardless of how many shots have been fired. This also necessitates a fixed-length stock with some springs to dampen the recoil from firing, but since we aren't really designing a firearm and only the exterior model of it - I think it's good and fits the cyberpunk setting.

The USAS-12 and the AA-12 are nice, but maybe the Pancor Jackhammer is a better shotgun to use a base - it's also way more distinctive than the other options.

Honestly, drum mags are the way to go and my mind's been made up about it. They are more efficient, have a greater capacity and if the vanilla mechanism was so successful as a method of feeding ammunition, it would be widely adopted today.

While I like the Pancor Jackammer as a shotgun, I feel it will be a poor fit for Deus Ex and also does not conform to the design mandate. It uses a cylinder feed mechanism instead of a drum and only carries 10 rounds. The USAS-12 is perfect inspiration as it so closely resembles the weapon that will be redesigned in the first place. Remember that it won't be an exact copy of it, but just a base for inspiration during the creative process for working towards a final and polished design.

From personal experience drum mags are very prone to jams in field conditions. Too many moving parts and curved designs don't mix nicely.
So while they can hold more ammo, you'll fire less of it as most of the time you'll spend fixing the jams. It just adds more weight to the rifle and uncertainty to an action that should be the simplest - just pointing and shooting.

Anyway, I have literally 0 experience with shotguns, so it might work out well there. The AA-12 is a variant of the USAS-12 with lowered recoil and without the metal part in front of the cocking lever - minor improvements that you were going to make anyway, but it might be worth taking a look at.

While those claims and assumptions are all unsubstantiated, drum mags have had a bad reputation in the past for jamming. it doesn't matter so much though when considering it for a game/mod. Also who's to say that new drum mags with improved mechanisms havn't been developed by 2052. I'd imagine that filling one up with mud and water would be counter productive to its operation though, just like any other mag haha, but in all the settings you would find them in DX, they would be well suited.

And on the extreme and fun side of things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnrsvUanLfU

Mortecha: consider modelling a mask-able "silencer" on the end of both shotguns. However for the shotguns alone it will work like a suppressor (noise reduction of lets say 60%), not Deus Ex's futuristic "silencers" (100% noise reduction). This will be stated in the silencer mod's description in some form.
This will result in the shotguns being nearly as loud as they were vanilla (i.e hardly at all - the values were all screwed vanilla), and will be yet even deeper weapon customization available in GMDX.

What do you mean by "mask-able "silencer""? You can suppress shotguns with suppressors.

I think the weapon audio in general needs to be updated to suit the weapons they will be used for. In fact sound as one component of many that help make the weapon believable is just as important as aesthetic and design.

I think that he means that the weapon will look alright even if the suppressor's texture is masked (and in-game will be invisible) - so the weapon model will fit both the regular weapon and the suppressed weapon.

As a side note, I don't really want to talk about the drums anymore - but I can say that them my bias against them having jams is from experience with 2 machine guns - the FN MAG and the IMI Negev, and that's also knowledge passed down between their operators here. Not really unsubstantiated - but it's personal experience more than anything else.

Made in China wrote:I think that he means that the weapon will look alright even if the suppressor's texture is masked (and in-game will be invisible) - so the weapon model will fit both the regular weapon and the suppressed weapon.

As a side note, I don't really want to talk about the drums anymore - but I can say that them my bias against them having jams is from experience with 2 machine guns - the FN MAG and the IMI Negev, and that's also knowledge passed down between their operators here. Not really unsubstantiated - but it's personal experience more than anything else.

I'd rather not make an assumption about what CP means until CP elaborates himself.

That's fine. There's a point where delving into too deeper details becomes counter productive and beyond the scope of the design process, especially when those details really have no effect on the gameplay, balance or design of the weapon.

During this process, bare in mind we're not discussing designs for a weapon to be manufactured to then be used by military and policing forces around the world in life threatening situations, but weapons that act as great bases of influence for the creation of highly appropriate and visually pleasing weapons to be used in a game, and subsequent discussions about the results and further improvements to be made on those.

I would also like to stress, that your input, and the input from everyone else is highly valued.

What Made In China said; using a pink mask tex to mask part of a model via multiskins so that we can have shotguns with/without silencers depending on whether the weapon mod attachment is applied.

Cybernetic pig wrote:What Made In China said; using a pink mask tex to mask part of a model via multiskins so that we can have shotguns with/without silencers depending on whether the weapon mod attachment is applied.

Understood, though does that not apply to all attachments? What makes the shotgun suppressor attachments so different?

Because completely silent shotguns would be OP, plus we still want them to have a beefy firing sound. The inconsistency factor is not so important. It's already inconsistent, for example clip mods always give at least +1 clip size despite +10% not always representing +1 clip size. Range mods increase heavy weapon projectile speed despite working differently for bullet-based weaponry, and so on.