Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

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Salk
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Salk »

Personally, I like Mortecha's and MadeInChina's idea of having one scope mod that works differently when installed on different guns. I know it is not realistic but since CP has always maintained that gameplay must be privileged, I think this could still be implemented.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

That's the least desirable concept by far, in my opinion, to the point it shouldn't even be considered.

-If we're going crazy adding an aim down sights system to support holo sights and the like, may as well do it properly with concept 1.
-The player has no sensible indication what they're gonna get beforehand if it all comes from the Universal Scope Kit..
-The player has no choice in the matter. we've given them a holographic sight with aiming down sights before on their other gun, but for this gun we're forcing them to have a scope. Why? The universal kit has shown it has those components.
-It's arguably too illogical and unrealistic in that it all comes from the one kit, and the above reasons too.

Sure you can have two separate kits again- sights and scope kits, which will solve some of these problems, but may as well just go with concept 1 if we're adding aiming down sights and the like.
CP has always maintained that gameplay must be privileged
The majority of the time gameplay should be privileged if there is a conflict of interest between realism and gameplay, but there is a line that should not be crossed in either direction in this type of game. There can be too gamey, there can be too realistic, and it's highly context sensitive. Exceptions can sometimes apply in any case, but I don't think this hypothetical concept 4 should be one because I don't think it's good in any respect.

Too gamey/unrealistic for Deus Ex: gaining high Z velocity by jumping on enemies heads, Mario Bros. style.
Too realistic: one assault gun shot to the torso causing death or putting you or enemies out of action due to the pain.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Mortecha wrote:
Cybernetic pig wrote:The way I intend to implement it (if concept 1 is chosen) is iron sights are damn near unusable at untrained, just as scopes are, because there's so much sway. It should be entirely optional and have minimal to no impact on game balance, if possible. The sway formula would be a copy-paste of the scope formula (likely with refinements to smooth it out), preferably modifying weapon rotation, fire offset and making the bullet go in the direction the weapon is rotated as opposed to swaying view rotation though, because that'd look silly.
I can't see how iron sights should be so unusable when untrained. When you can look down an untrained weapon with a scope, there is movement that makes shooting difficult but not unusable. Those same movements should affect the player looking down iron sights to the same extent.
Cybernetic pig wrote:Agreed on no detachable weapon mods. That should be a no-go.

again, counter-voice of reason though: going with the HDTP concept or concept 3 is far more sensible and viable, but I still think there's heaps of value in concept 1 and I'm happy to go with it as long as mods are not detachable despite the majority of players valid expectations to be able to experiment with scopes vs sights etc. Cuts out most of the immediate problems I have with it.
While detachable scopes would offer the player the most freedom with weapon customisation, I disagree that weapon mods should not be detachable. By restricting detachment, we are telling players how to play the game, even if it deviates from the vanilla DX experience slightly. There must be a good description outlining the strengths and weaknesses of this scope so that the player is informed and players should not be completely restricted by their choice, as I would like players to experiment with what works best for them. A part of that is the ability to attach and detach scopes and sights at their discretion.

One drawback not allowing scope detachment would be when a player has found their first scope, and the immediately attach it to their Assault Rifle. And then down the track they find another one that is better suited for it. What can they do?
  • Will they be stuck with their first choice? (Restrictive, this will also make players wait for their favorite scope instead of using the first one on subsequent play throughs. This will also force players to pick up dropped weapons to attach another scope too, thus potentially losing all mods they attached onto the weapon they dropped if they like the new scope better)
  • Can they replace the attached scope with the new scope? (Added player freedom, they aren't locked in to one scope, they can upgrade to better scope)
  • Will the replaced scope just disappear? (Simplest, CP happifier:P)
  • Will the replaced scope be returned to the inventory, taking the inventory slot of the scope that replaced it? (Detachable, this allows for that scope to then be used on another weapon)
  • What if player doesn't like it and wants the first one back?

Further questions
  • What if the player doesn't like the first scope the attached after they found it?
  • What if the player wanted to get iron sights back?

If detachment functionality by any means is implemented
Unwanted scopes are discarded at the discretion of the player like every other item not required by them.
I think my post has been completely missed, so here it is again.
Made in China
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

Due to the way mods are applied currently, I don't see a way to rectify it and give the players a choice on what scopes they'd like to install when using a single scope mod. Again, we're trading consistency with better approach to gunplay - a pistol should never, ever be used like a sniper rifle even if it does have a crazy scope.
That's why the first choice is so offputting - it makes major changes to the game, and while some are very much in the spirit of Deus Ex others seem incompatible. I have no idea how it'll actually work out, but it seems very polarizing.

The fact that you can have 2 scope mods and have to choose one over the other doesn't seem like Deus Ex because in the actual gameplay, when you hit a brick wall, you could always turn back around and try the other way. And having that choice always there for assembly and disassembly strips away choice permanence after you've already committed.
That's also why weapon mods work as linear progressions - in no way applying a mod to your weapon will make it worse and make you want to go back.

The only way I can think of to minimize those downsides is to incorporate advanced weapon modding and scopes into the tutorial, and to strip away disassembly and replacement of scopes. That way players will know what they're getting into, as was with mantling. There should be a rifle/handgun/whatever dispenser or something to prevent from unsuspecting players to take everything all at once and converting it to ammo instead of experimenting with the scopes and the iron sights, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
In the age of NANOMACHINES, the scope is probably fused to the gun using SUBMOLECULAR GLUE (I've been watching MGS4 speedruns in the background, and actually some of that is only crazy mumblings of a homeless person and not total batshit insanity).
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Salk wrote:Personally, I like Mortecha's and MadeInChina's idea of having one scope mod that works differently when installed on different guns. I know it is not realistic but since CP has always maintained that gameplay must be privileged, I think this could still be implemented.
My idea changed, that was my initial idea though.

Made in China wrote:Due to the way mods are applied currently, I don't see a way to rectify it and give the players a choice on what scopes they'd like to install when using a single scope mod.
Rectify what? Like what are you trying to rectify?

Made in China wrote:Again, we're trading consistency with better approach to gunplay - a pistol should never, ever be used like a sniper rifle even if it does have a crazy scope.
Sniper Rifle comes with a special scope that is already attached to it, which is also fixed. This is because the sniper rifle scope is unique to the sniper rifle due to the nature and specialisation of the weapon. The Sniper Rifle scope is not an attachable scope, and will not be able to be attached to any other weapon, and will be integrated into the Sniper Rifle itself to reflect this.

Attachable scopes will look good, and work well no matter the weapon they are attached too.

Made in China wrote:That's why the first choice is so offputting - it makes major changes to the game, and while some are very much in the spirit of Deus Ex others seem incompatible. I have no idea how it'll actually work out, but it seems very polarizing.
I do not understand why detachable scopes and Option 1 are such a huge deal for you, it will not affect the game at all, in fact it will make the game better by offering a greater amount of weapon variation and freedom to the player to play the game the way they want to play. Is that not DX?

Made in China wrote:The fact that you can have 2 scope mods and have to choose one over the other doesn't seem like Deus Ex because in the actual gameplay, when you hit a brick wall, you could always turn back around and try the other way. And having that choice always there for assembly and disassembly strips away choice permanence after you've already committed.
That's also why weapon mods work as linear progressions - in no way applying a mod to your weapon will make it worse and make you want to go back.
This is a massive contradiction. You say DX allows you to problem solve multiple ways, and then you compare that to consequences of making a permanent choice? If you have two scopes that you have not tested yet, you won't have to blindly choose, you can try both and keep the one that you like. In fact is this not an extension of DX's philosophies? You are hung up on one tiny mechanic that will have no impact upon the game itself.

Made in China wrote:The only way I can think of to minimize those downsides is to incorporate advanced weapon modding and scopes into the tutorial, and to strip away disassembly and replacement of scopes. That way players will know what they're getting into, as was with mantling. There should be a rifle/handgun/whatever dispenser or something to prevent from unsuspecting players to take everything all at once and converting it to ammo instead of experimenting with the scopes and the iron sights, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
In the age of NANOMACHINES, the scope is probably fused to the gun using SUBMOLECULAR GLUE (I've been watching MGS4 speedruns in the background, and actually some of that is only crazy mumblings of a homeless person and not total batshit insanity).
Where did disassembly come from? And no, there would be no need to incorporate scopes into the tutorial. Players will work out fairly quickly what they can do with them after they see different types of scopes. They can either read the descriptions or they can experiment. I think not making scopes detachable would just feel like a slap in the face when they experiment with it, then realise that they are stuck with what ever scope they attached.

For everything else, No just No. You are just confusing it all.

Lastly, lets not forget, this is all OPTIONAL!! vanilla scope functionality will be preserved when players use HDTP's weapons.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote:I can't see how iron sights should be so unusable when untrained. When you can look down an untrained weapon with a scope, there is movement that makes shooting difficult but not unusable. Those same movements should affect the player looking down iron sights to the same extent.
That's the idea. I mentioned copy-pasting the vanilla scope sway [mathematical] formula and refining it if need be.
I said "near-unusable" (especially so if you have damaged arms). Still usable if you're good/patient/whatever.
While detachable scopes would offer the player the most freedom with weapon customisation, I disagree that weapon mods should not be detachable. By restricting detachment, we are telling players how to play the game
Yup. Ain't nothing wrong with (good) game rules dictating what a player can and cannot do. They're essential even, otherwise you get a (imo usually boring) undefined sandbox. I'd like to see detachable scopes/sights too, but detachable lasers and suppressors is a real problem.
Further questions
What if the player doesn't like the first scope the attached after they found it?
What if the player wanted to get iron sights back?
If going with that concept we probably should enable detaching of scopes/sights (via the inventory weapon info window), but not lasers and suppressors. The latter is just too OP. Consistency be damned. There can always be special case breaks from design consistency if there's just no other foreseeable way.
Made in China wrote:The fact that you can have 2 scope mods and have to choose one over the other doesn't seem like Deus Ex because in the actual gameplay, when you hit a brick wall, you could always turn back around and try the other way.
Hmm? It's very Deus Ex. Can't have all the skills in one playthrough. Have to pick one of two augs per slot. Can't fully upgrade all your weapons (if you carry many) as there's simply not enough mods. Inventory system restricts what you can and cannot carry.
The approach to level design and challenges is there's always an alternate solution. But the philosophy with RPG systems is different: Permanent choices, and you can't have them all in a single playthrough.

I still find all three concepts appealing. Concept 1 for the greatest depth. 2 for playing it safe, minimizing workload (as contributors are uncertain) and utmost faithfulness. 3 for a middle ground between the two.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

OK, I have an idea.

Why not make Option One's functionality optional, separate from both the my weapons and GMDX. For obvious reasons, Option One can only be selected if my weapons are going to be used.
This will produce three possibilities.

1. MWM and Extended Scope functionaliy unselected. HDTP weapons and vanilla attachment behaviour.
2. MWM selected but Extended scope functionality unselected. My weapons will be used, but scopes behave as per vanilla, with the exception that a redesigned scope is used to suit the weapons.
3. MWM selected, Extended scope functionality selected. My weapons with Option 1.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Nah. Determine the most suitable/viable/valuable concept and stick with it.

If going with concept 1 I think it's acceptable to have detachable sights, but not detachable lasers etc. Players may expect otherwise at first but it'd be something most accept without it causing any major issues for their play experience or immersion.
After all, everyone accepts we can't detach any mod at all vanilla, and most will appreciate that we can now detach something, even if it's not entirely consistent.

Concept 1 (with the above modification), 2 or 3, what do you prefer, think we will be able to see to completion, and the game + your weapon models will most benefit from?

Myself I'm very conflicted so I'd like to hear what you think we should go for.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Made in China
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

I'm sleep deprived and my views are directly contradicting both of yours - if they're causing any issues, just ignore them. I'm with Cybernetic Pig about sticking with one concept - not only it'll have more polish, GMDX can fit around it more tightly. It doesn't really matter what one person (me) thinks at the moment, especially when that person isn't actually involved in creating the mod.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

You're not doing any harm, MiC. Good to have opposing viewpoints sometimes.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:Nah. Determine the most suitable/viable/valuable concept and stick with it.

If going with concept 1 I think it's acceptable to have detachable sights, but not detachable lasers etc. Players may expect otherwise at first but it'd be something most accept without it causing any major issues for their play experience or immersion.
After all, everyone accepts we can't detach any mod at all vanilla, and most will appreciate that we can now detach something, even if it's not entirely consistent.
Scopes are the most visual aspect of weapon addons, and if option 1 is chosen, subjectivity would play a big part as there would be a number of retacles and crosshairs + scope characteristics and zoom levels so in the end it would be up to the player to decide which to use. I agree that lasers and suppressors shouldn't be removable as there's more benefits to having them attached and are not subject to player subjectivity to the same degree.
Cybernetic pig wrote:Concept 1 (with the above modification), 2 or 3, what do you prefer, think we will be able to see to completion, and the game + your weapon models will most benefit from?

Myself I'm very conflicted so I'd like to hear what you think we should go for.
Option One is both achievable and would offer the most benefit. It's more ambitious, but the fruits of that ambition and work would be something highly rewarding. It's also never been done in DX before too and would be another selling point for GMDX over Revision. It will of course require iterative refinement and balance over time, and will only be available in the realms of using these weapons I'm creating so all vanilla functionality remains untouched.

Made in China wrote:I'm sleep deprived and my views are directly contradicting both of yours - if they're causing any issues, just ignore them. I'm with Cybernetic Pig about sticking with one concept - not only it'll have more polish, GMDX can fit around it more tightly. It doesn't really matter what one person (me) thinks at the moment, especially when that person isn't actually involved in creating the mod.
The more view points, and the more friction in ideas creates a better, logically sound and polished product/functionality at the end of the day. Any feedback is welcome always.


On the topic of suppressors and laser pointers, is it possible to have one addon item but have different visual representations of then depending upon the weapon? It would look strange to have a Sniper Rifle suppressed with a suppressor designed for a 10mm pistol. And there are differences in location and form between using a laser pointer on a pistol than there would be on an assault rifle for example.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote: On the topic of suppressors and laser pointers, is it possible to have one addon item but have different visual representations of then depending upon the weapon? It would look strange to have a Sniper Rifle suppressed with a suppressor designed for a 10mm pistol. And there are differences in location and form between using a laser pointer on a pistol than there would be on an assault rifle for example.
Sure. HDTP got away with it. Laser mods in HDTP vary somewhat, it's just subtle and I think that's an important distinction. Suppressors don't so much, but I've never seen anyone take issue with it and I doubt they would if there were a little more subtle variance either.
Option One is both achievable and would offer the most benefit. It's more ambitious, but the fruits of that ambition and work would be something highly rewarding. It's also never been done in DX before too and would be another selling point for GMDX over Revision. It will of course require iterative refinement and balance over time, and will only be available in the realms of using these weapons I'm creating so all vanilla functionality remains untouched.
Right. Option 1 it is with the agreed upon base design. The downsides of this concept are reduced considerably by not having detachable lasers or suppressors. Not much will need to be different at all, as aiming down a holo sight will be nearly identical to aiming down scope as it currently functions in vanilla/GMDX.

Further defined though:

Pistol: accepts scope and sights mods.
Minicrossbow: sights mods only? Scope on a wrist-mounted crossbow is utterly stupid as I'm sure you know. However, DX had this originally and it doesn't seem right taking it way for supposed realism.
Stealth pistol: accepts scope and sights mods.
Both shotguns: accepts sights mods only (isn't a scope on a shotgun impractical too?).
Assault Gun: accepts scope and sights mods.
Rifle: Comes with scope by default. Maybe have the option to take it off and put on a sights mod/iron sights instead?
Plasma Rifle: I'll leave it to you to decide, since it depends heavily on your new design I suppose.
GEP Gun: Scope only (guidance system).
Flamethrower, LAW, PS20 and all the rest no compatibility.

Laser and silencer mod compatibility should match vanilla/GMDX exactly.

You can only have one optics type on a weapon at any particular time.

You can detach a scope or sight via the inventory providing you have space. If you don't have inventory space you'll get a HUD notification telling you so (not a fan of the alternative of dropping it to the floor).

Is that all agreeable?

For the purists or aim down sights haters out there: remember this will be an optional mode and it's not intended to affect the normal mode at all. Also there would be no systemic/gameplay encouragement to actually use iron sights or whatever. Vanilla accuracy system will be the same. You can simply pretend it doesn't exist. If there's any encouragement simply beyond the existence of sights kits I'll try and snuff it out. It shouldn't interfere at all with DX's glorious accuracy system.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Made in China
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

Sniper rifles in general and DMRs in particular have backup iron sights if your optics are damaged. No one in their right mind will use it, but it's there, and most probably not zeroed.

From research on shotguns, they have about 50-75 meters of effective range to them using a buckshot. This is much more than pistols, so they deserve a scope even more? Game shotguns don't really equate to real world shotguns.

Isn't taking optics away from the crossbow makes long and mid-range non-lethal builds less viable? That and rubber bullets (which are pretty scarce in comparison, and are close range) are the only way to non lethally take out an enemy from a distance.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Made in China wrote: From research on shotguns, they have about 50-75 meters of effective range to them using a buckshot. This is much more than pistols, so they deserve a scope even more? Game shotguns don't really equate to real world shotguns.
I'm aware. It's just I wouldn't expect a scope to be conventional as shotguns have notorious kickback. You'd get a scope in the eye? But of course, game shotgun. Maybe we should support scoped shotguns regardless just for the sake of more choice. Still seems silly though.
...And I don't believe I've seen scoped shotguns in real world context nor nearly all games either.

Also DX doesn't have typical game shotguns. They have rather a lot of range compared to some other games.
Made in China
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

Any gun will recoil. If you know how to hold it and to press it against your shoulder socket, you can mitigate the recoil and not have it fly from your arms into your eyes.

Grenade launchers are probably exempt from this, but they aren't in-game so whatever. 40mm grenade launchers need to be actively pushed away from your body as their intense recoil can dislocate your shoulder.
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