Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

[Cybernetic pig]

Farcry 3 and 4

Excuse my lack of knowledge on the matter as I'm only a very mild gun enthusiast, but when you attach an ACOG scope to a weapon in Far Cry (or indeed real life), aren't they all aesthetically the same too? Just searched "Far Cry 4 ACOG" and they all look very similar no matter the gun, just with minor aesthetic differences. Why is that same concept not desirable for Deus Ex's telescopic scopes? Because telescopic scopes on pistols and mini-crossbows is unconventional and holographic/red dot sights is more realistic? Who gives a shit, scopes on everything is how Deus Ex defined it.

[Mortecha]

Farcry 3 and 4

Excuse my lack of knowledge on the matter as I'm only a very mild gun enthusiast, but when you attach an ACOG scope to a weapon in Far Cry (or indeed real life), aren't they all aesthetically the same too? Just searched "Far Cry 4 ACOG" and they all look very similar no matter the gun, just with minor aesthetic differences. Why is that same concept not desirable for Deus Ex's telescopic scopes? Because telescopic scopes on pistols and mini-crossbows is unconventional and holographic/red dot sights is more realistic? Who gives a shit, scopes on everything is how Deus Ex defined it.

I think we have some creative differences and ideals dude. Who gives a shit? lol.

I'm going to make this a separate mod, as I want to avoid all this crap when it comes to discussing any new piece of functionality. You're just too difficult, your mind is too closed and you inhibit creativity. By making it seperate, I have all the creative control I want, and my vision for the weapons I want to create and how they work can be fully realised.

[Cybernetic pig]

I think I gave a bunch of pretty good reasons as to why we should stick to what is established but just do it better, but so be it. If that's your wish over one minor difference of opinion, despite my repeated stating that I'm willing to consider doing things your way if we can't see eye to eye.

I don't think my mind is closed on the matter. It's not like you've given a detailed design concept to convince anyone things should be done differently. I've also stayed well clear of your weapon model designs, if I had it my way they would have been more faithful, but I recognize the importance of some degree of creative freedom with non-profit work and I like your designs.
It's the "greatest PC game of all time", all design decisions should be given the utmost care and consideration. Creative freedom is not of absolute importance as we're modifying someone else's designs, and ideally attempting to fit in. If you don't you can end up with an inconsistent mess.

"All this crap" and "inhibition of creativity" is a necessity, as you're proposing adding new concepts to existing systems which can change things up rather a lot so one needs to think of all the possible consequences of that change, no matter how small, and determine whether or not it should actually be done. So I'm sorry to be difficult but it's how you end up with a mod like GMDX.

Good luck with your mod. If I like the end result I hope you won't mind if I optionally support it nonetheless?

[Mortecha]

Good luck with your mod. If I like the end result I hope you won't mind if I optionally support it nonetheless?

I don't see that being a problem, as long as it remains unchanged during the integration process.

[Cybernetic pig]

If I do opt to integrate it I can't promise that right now. HDTP needed to be modified to better suit DX, and it's still not perfect. Not saying I expect yours will need such work too but If it's exceptional and fitting then sure, I won't touch a thing.

[Mortecha]

Well if you do change something on it then there's no way I would allow an integration to occur because it is disrespectful of my work, and will give people the wrong idea about it. Besides, you don't even have the right to make changes to it, so it's funny how you think you can. I'm also questioning weather I would even want it to be integrated into GMDX now.

[Cybernetic pig]

Forget I asked.

[Mortecha]

Forget I asked.

You asking was fine, but you assuming that you have the right to change the prospective mod during integration into GMDX for things you perceive to be better is not.

[Cybernetic pig]

I haven't assumed I have the "right" to change anything.
As we've established you don't want any modifications done to it at any cost, even though it'd only be in the interest of integrating into DX better, then that's that. No modifications, or no integration at all will happen, depending on the outcome, and if you even finish it at all.

[Made in China]

This is devolving, fast. I'll change the subject to "Mortecha's Weapon Mod" as the only weapon model modifications in GMDX were done by him.

My personal opinion on this thing is that you both will gain from cooperation - both in accuracy, improvement to general quality and exposure. Unwillingness to compromise or notice the other's needs have doomed this cooperation, and I hope that somehow it'll still work out, as a consumer of GMDX and (probably) Mortecha's weapon mod.

I don't really want to offer any criticism, but I feel like I have to because I sincerely believe GMDX is the only way to play Deus Ex nowadays and Mortecha's models will benefit it, and vice versa - so here we go.
Mortecha - you're making a mod for an already established game with certain principles. Even though those concepts aren't very realistic, they affect the game and weapon balance as a whole, so major changes to how the weapons work may have unintended consequences that only people who have delved into the depths of this game know about, like Cybernetic Pig. He has valuable input, even though if it doesn't fit in with your original vision. It doesn't mean you're wrong, if you were to design the game from scratch - but sometimes things just don't fit in with how the game was designed.
Cybernetic Pig - While it hurts me to say this, you've focused too much on the original game design and its concepts, while it's worthwhile to experiment with how the new way of thinking Mortecha suggested can impact the game. The scope mod being different for every weapon is realistic in some regards, as most weapons do utilize different kinds of scopes - heck, some weapons even utilize different scopes for different functions. It's also something that most players won't think twice about - use a scope mod, get a +1 weapon. It doesn't really matter what that mod actually contains. Even the laser pointers as utilized in HDTP aren't realistic right now, even if they are generic. The new approach is at least worth trying out - if it doesn't work out or destroys the immersion, you could've always used a one-size-fits-all scope after testing. But deliberating about it even before it was attempted in practice is futile, and is what destroyed this cooperation.

[Salk]

I trust this cooperation is not destroyed because the protagonists are two intelligent people.

I trust they will find common ground to the satisfaction of both parties.

[Cybernetic pig]

I've been beyond reasonable and cooperative.

While I'd prefer sticking to the established concept just with improvements, the above does sound pretty good too, as long as they still remain permanent choices and you can't change/detach optics types once one is applied.

...but I'm willing to consider something like that if people provide alternate scope view textures. It would be far more diverse.

If it comes to it though and will just can't agree, I will say fuck it, make specialized scopes for each weapon, as long as they are all scopes and not holographic sights and the like.

I will consider getting on board with your desired approach, because it will create great diversity and indeed illogical game elements can be very fruitful.

we need to come to some kind of agreement/compromise on this.

Again I just don't want to see EVERY weapon having completely different optics that function entirely different from each other, all supposedly coming from this same mod pack.

Usually I'd say it's my way or else because I'm the designer, project lead and Looking Glass enthusiast that (perhaps arrogantly, perhaps not) thinks he knows best for DX. I just don't have that power over him as was determined when I tried to persuade him to make models more faithful to the original and he wouldn't budge, hence why I decided it should be an optional thing. Optional or not it should still attempt to fit in, and I should still have some input especially as what he proposed demands notable coding that I'd have to implement.

[Mortecha]

After much though on the matter, I realise that alot more can be gained from this cooperation than could be gained by going our separate ways.

I have also apologised to Cypernetic Pig about my outburst, and somewhat self destructive bridge burning sentiments with the hope of continuing our fine work for the benefit of the community and for DX. It was wrong for me to just explode like that about something that in the grand scheme of things is trivial. And to also think that quitting anything solves your problems is another life lesson I think we can all learn from as it doesn't. Progress and rewards can only be achieved through sticking it out through difficulty, and to form a suitable compromise where differences in opinion exist.

So I am happy to say that after a short discussion, I will remain with GMDX and it will be business as usual.

Also there will be more times where these types of discussions occur, and more times where we will have to come to a compromise about them. And I look forward to it. I will also be aware of my temperament and take a break when required lol. And to be fair, Cybernetic is going out on a limb here and he will be the one who has to gode the functionality for these grand designs and ideas I want to contribute so for it is expected that there would have to be a certain degree of compromise as these have to also fit inside his vision of what he wants GMDX to be as it's creator. So for all that I am thankful to have the opportunity to be a part of this.

[Cybernetic pig]

Design concepts outlined lazily:

Concept 1 (Mortecha's concept with elaboration) - Holographic sights, telescopic scopes and red dots are all supported:





Universal Scope Mod kits are now not the only optics kit, there's now a new item: "Universal Sights Kit".
Scope kits provide Telescopic scopes (and maybe ACOG scopes depending on the weapon?).
Sights kits provide red dot or holographic or whatever optics that are not considered scopes.

Overall quantity possible to find in the game would be ~3 sight kits, ~3 scope kits, resulting in tough choices.

Scopes possibly come pre-attached to certain weapons they did not previously. Mostly a negative consequence as it reduces mod choice for that weapon and possibly makes use of that weapon easier by default (as scopes provide pinpoint accuracy but add sway. Also GEP gun guidance system).

Pitfalls:

-Iron sights/aim down sights mechanic would need to be introduced with the introduction of any new optic type except scopes.
-Players would naturally want to experiment with sights vs scopes and would very reasonably expect to be able to detach/reattach optics, and then if they can do that they'd also expect to be able to switch out laser mods and silencers too.
-Polys would likely need to be sacrificed to make way for supporting both scopes and sights on a weapon.

That's not to say all the above "pitfalls" are necessarily bad things, they can even be great things, either way they are a necessity to implement if going with this concept, correct me if I'm wrong.

Additional workload caused by new concepts: Great and not to be underestimated, but likely manageable with just the two of us + an animator given dedication. Would definitely take some period of time and would undoubtedly have to be released some time after v9.0. Although the way things are going that's going to be the case no matter what.

Value: potentially very high/the highest of all. It'd add a lot of depth if executed right. And don't worry, if I ever were to implement aim down sights functionality I'd make damn sure it's entirely optional and doesn't interfere with the vanilla accuracy system. It will work how scopes currently do - provides pinpoint accuracy, but the addition of weapon sway, intensity of sway based on skill level/accuracy stat.

Bonus: Can have optics mods on shotguns.

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Concept 2 (HDTP's concept iterated upon) - Generic scopes with subtle aesthetic differences:





I don't need to write much here as it's already established to work and fit just fine, yet the way in which HDTP executed it, while great, is not perfect, and can be improved somewhat.
There is still freedom here to add aesthetic diversity and realistic details, more so than HDTP did, only the weapon mods should ideally fit a base aesthetic brand/look/whatever, no matter the weapon it is applied to, barring one or two, maybe three special cases (GEP, Plasma, Assault Gun).

Value: established to be great and fits like a glove.

Pitfalls/downsides:

-Scopes on pistols and minicrossbows is unconventional, but not according to Deus Ex of course.
-It's unambitious in comparison to concept 1/offers less overall gameplay and aesthetic depth.

Additional workload caused by new concepts: Minimal. Mortecha would be making scopes that are subtly more diverse and detailed than HDTP's copy-paste scope. Other than that there's no new concepts.


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Concept 3 (Middle Ground) - Specialized scopes with high aesthetic variance to suit the weapon it is applied to, but all are telescopic scopes.

Samples:

A telescopic scope on an M16

Handgun w/scope

A telescopic scope on a Sniper Rifle

A futuristic telescopic scope concept indicative of a unique DX plasma rifle or GEP scope

-Telescopic scopes ONLY to save from adding aim down sights functionality and the like, as well as fitting Deus Ex's original scope-only design faithfully.
-Scopes will function differently (zoom variance, different scope UI overlay textures drawn when aiming through the scope, whatever else that makes telescopic scopes different from each other or possible new ideas we can think of that are worthwhile).
-Higher degree of creative freedom and potential aesthetic beauty/variance than the HDTP concept.
-Just because it's the middle ground between our ideals and drama, doesn't mean it should be the chosen option. The chosen concept should be what is most valuable and what we can actually see to completion in a high quality manner. Faithfulness is important, but not absolute as it's intended to be an optional addition to GMDX.

Additional workload created by new concepts: moderate-minimal.

Value: also high.

Notable pitfalls/downsides:

-Same as concept 2, plus:
-The player must accept that a high degree of scope variance comes from this little mod pack.

They're all appealing. There's probably lots of details I'm missing, especially consequences both positive and negative as a result of the introduction of concept 1, but like I said, lazy conceptualization. I've tried to be unbiased though, as any reasonable person and good designer should on such matters.

Mortecha, feel free to point out inaccuracies with your concept and I'll edit it.

[Mortecha]

I like the amalgamation of all of the different views, it makes everything clear and succinct.

Initially, I was only thinking about just using scopes instead of holosights as I knew that holosights would need to have ironsight functionality implemented which had not been discussed at all. Also the image I provided of the holosite mounted onto the pistol was in reference to the best looking scope mount that I had currently found. I also like the one that you have found better. It's a better fit and looks more suitable. However, if it is possible to adopt iron sight functionality then I think that it would improve the mod's gun play even more than we have imagined so far, plus we would be able to add holo sights which would definitely not look out of place in DX at all.

I like Option One as it currently is, with the exception that instead of the Assault Rifle receiving the custom scope, it is instead the Sniper Rifle. This is because a Sniper Rifles scope is far more specialised than scopes you would use on Assault Rifles, Shotguns and Pistols. And would need to look different to show this.

I think it is better to strive for something that is more difficult to implement but produces a far superior user experience. I can also help with implementation as my C++ is alright.

That being said, this option would also need significant testing to ensure that it does not interfere with the games balance and flow to ensure that it remains enjoyable and fun. And when problems of this nature arise, then further design changes need to take place to ensure that it conforms to the best possible experience the mod can provide.

Finally, shotguns with scopes, now that would be cool too.

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A note about the name of this topic, would it be possible to rename it to Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion, as this will be the place to discuss anything about the mod in it's entirety, such as Scopes and anything that relates to the mod as a whole like balance etc. I have a number of other points of this nature to bring up also which may have just as much discussion also.

And then for each weapon, I will create a separate thread as they become available so that more specific feedback and discussion can occur on a per weapon basis.