Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

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Made in China
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

I agree with CP, the first concept is against choice permanence and is open to abuse. Once you have 2 different scope mods you've essentially peaked in terms of scopes for all guns, which breaks balance and tramples over upgrade paths.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Updated for holo sights:

[Iron Sight] [Scope] [Holographic Sight]

If it's a weapon that can have both scopes and sights you have to apply both those mods to have access to all three buttons, but you can only have one optics type selected and rendered on the gun (excluding iron sights which is always rendered ofc) at any time.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Made in China wrote:I agree with CP, the first concept is against choice permanence and is open to abuse. Once you have 2 different scope mods you've essentially peaked in terms of scopes for all guns, which breaks balance and tramples over upgrade paths.
Explain to me how this will be abused?

Also upgrade paths? We are talking about SCOPES!!, there isn't currently and there should not be an upgrade path...
Cybernetic pig wrote: Problem with scope concept 1 is again it goes against Deus Ex's choice permanence principle, is open to abuse (take scope off, stick it on GEP gun, do some IW style rocket guidance then put it back on original gun), and is not really any more realistic than scope concept 2 as we're not going with generic scopes.
I think you forgot that the GEP gun has it's own custom scope, that can't be detached, and can't receive a standard scope. The same applies to the plasma and the sniper rifle.

The rest of the weapons can have scopes attached to them. These scopes can be detached and swapped around at will.

The weapons that can receive scopes are: (ones that can be attached and detached at will)

Mini Crossbow,
Stealth Pistol,
Pistol,
Sawed Off Shotgun,
Assault Rifle,
Assault Shotgun

Weapons that have special scopes are: (ones that can't be detached)
Sniper Rifle
Plasma Rifle
GEP Gun

I seriously do not understand what the issue is with not going with option 1. We are talking about SCOPES!!

The nature of the scopes that can be attached and detached:
2 to 3 variants of Scopes, enclosed metal cylinders, glass both ends, with different crosshairs. One will be good for short range (best for shotguns), One will be medium range and the other two will be good for medium to longer range.
2 to 3 variants of red dot sights (good for pistols, stealth pistols and shotguns) The assault rifle will also work well with one too.

This functionality is only for this weapon mod. Vanilla and HDTP functionality remains unaltered and if the player does not like the weapons or the scopes, then they will be free to choose those other options:P
Made in China
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

Let's say you're proficient in pistols, and have run out of ammo. Normally, this would force you to sneak around or scavenge for ammo - essentially, fall back to a secondary gameplay style to further support your main play style. The secondary gameplay style should always be inferior to the main, because that's what separates them from each other - and in Deus Ex you can't master everything for that reason, too.

When you can transfer some of your mods, doesn't matter if it's laser, accuracy, or scope - you can essentially transfer some of your progress in one progress tree to another, for example from pistols to rifles. Once you find an assault rifle, which isn't a very hard thing to do, you can play rifles more efficiently - thus lessening the effect of switching to a secondary gameplay style. If you can land headshots using a slight proficiency upgrade (being trained in everything) and a single optics mod you essentially break the game balance.

P.S.
This also stays correct for different guns using the same skill - you've run out of crossbow darts? Use the stealth pistol or the regular one because why not!
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Made in China wrote:Let's say you're proficient in pistols, and have run out of ammo. Normally, this would force you to sneak around or scavenge for ammo - essentially, fall back to a secondary gameplay style to further support your main play style. The secondary gameplay style should always be inferior to the main, because that's what separates them from each other - and in Deus Ex you can't master everything for that reason, too.



P.S.
This also stays correct for different guns using the same skill - you've run out of crossbow darts? Use the stealth pistol or the regular one because why not!
And this is a problem because?

I see no problem with the above, in fact I'd say the player was playing intelligently.
Made in China wrote:When you can transfer some of your mods, doesn't matter if it's laser, accuracy, or scope - you can essentially transfer some of your progress in one progress tree to another, for example from pistols to rifles. Once you find an assault rifle, which isn't a very hard thing to do, you can play rifles more efficiently - thus lessening the effect of switching to a secondary gameplay style. If you can land headshots using a slight proficiency upgrade (being trained in everything) and a single optics mod you essentially break the game balance.
I'm going to call BS on this. When you start talking about skills and compare skill point transfer to changing a weapon mod you are thinking way too deep on this. Also regarding balance, this would all have to be tested extensively to get it right. You can't just throw in some functionality into the mix and hope it works...
Made in China
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

Of course the player is playing intelligently if he's using obvious loopholes or intended design for his favor. The point is to design the mod so that it'll be balanced and won't make everything too easy. Ammo scarcity to not allow for absent-minded run-and-gun gameplay is a part of that in Deus Ex, and creating a mechanic to remove it is detrimental, I feel.

That's why I'm in favor of concept 2, despite of concept 1 being more realistic.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Made in China wrote:Of course the player is playing intelligently if he's using obvious loopholes or intended design for his favor. The point is to design the mod so that it'll be balanced and won't make everything too easy. Ammo scarcity to not allow for absent-minded run-and-gun gameplay is a part of that in Deus Ex, and creating a mechanic to remove it is detrimental, I feel.

That's why I'm in favor of concept 2, despite of concept 1 being more realistic.
Don't you think I've thought about that? How can it be a loophole if that behavior is desired? You wan't the player to make strategic decisions and plans to overcome obstacles. And don't forget we control all of the inputs that govern balance. If you listen, it will obviously have to be tested and tweaked, like anything else. Stop assuming. Your input is valuable though.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

This:
(take scope off, stick it on GEP gun, do some IW style rocket guidance then put it back on original gun)
Is not desired behavior if you ask me. GEP sees some real benefit from the scope mod. But that's the only major loophole as scopes typically don't have much influence over game balance*. They're only really advantageous in long range engagements and only if you have the accuracy for it.

*applies to sights too considering its intended to be near-identical to scope functioning.

But scope concept 2 is still desirable for the choice permanence/consistency with not being able to re-materialize other weapon mods aspect too.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote: Problem with scope concept 1 is again it goes against Deus Ex's choice permanence principle, is open to abuse (take scope off, stick it on GEP gun, do some IW style rocket guidance then put it back on original gun), and is not really any more realistic than scope concept 2 as we're not going with generic scopes.
I think you forgot that the GEP gun has it's own custom scope, that can't be detached, and can't receive a standard scope. The same applies to the plasma and the sniper rifle.

The rest of the weapons can have scopes attached to them. These scopes can be detached and swapped around at will.

The weapons that can receive scopes are: (ones that can be attached and detached at will)

Mini Crossbow,
Stealth Pistol,
Pistol,
Sawed Off Shotgun,
Assault Rifle,
Assault Shotgun

Weapons that have special scopes are: (ones that can't be detached)
Sniper Rifle
Plasma Rifle
GEP Gun

Then you said this...
Cybernetic pig wrote:This:
Cybernetic pig wrote:(take scope off, stick it on GEP gun, do some IW style rocket guidance then put it back on original gun)
Is not desired behavior if you ask me. GEP sees some real benefit from the scope mod. But that's the only major loophole as scopes typically don't have much influence over game balance*. They're only really advantageous in long range engagements and only if you have the accuracy for it.

*applies to sights too considering its intended to be near-identical to scope functioning.

But scope concept 2 is still desirable for the choice permanence/consistency with not being able to re-materialize other weapon mods aspect too.


Do you read the preceding posts? In fact I have tried to bring your attention to this fallacy of yours once before. You should have understood that the GEP Gun can't be fitted with a scope because it already has one, this scope can't also be detached. The GEP Gun like the plasma rifle and Sniper rifle have fixed scopes due to specialized nature of these weapons...

Option one as I has said before, which I'm going to assume that you have not read, or maybe have forgotten, is simpler. You take a scope off and the user would expect it appear in the inventory (if there's enough space), were they can then choose to either discard it if they have no need for it or attach it to another weapon. This would provide another factor in strategic decisions players make about their loadouts and how they want to use each weapon, as well as evolving their play style at their choosing as they gain more effective Scopes.

Option 2 would confuse the player initially as they would expect the scope to appear in the inventory after they remove it, but it does not. It's too magical as you would have a collection of scopes inside a invisible and weightless bag of holding attached to the weapon. This option also removes the ability for the player to be able to evolve their play style as they gain access to more effective scopes, as they would have spent the opportunity to be able to improve their other weapons because the scope was bound to a given weapon. Scopes are inherently detachable, except for special cases for specialist weapons where scopes are fixed. This also removes the opportunity to impart choices upon the player regarding what scopes they choose are important to have, what scopes they like to use and on what weapons they chose would fit the scope too and at what time they choose to use it.
Cybernetic pig wrote: Is not desired behavior if you ask me. GEP sees some real benefit from the scope mod. But that's the only major loophole as scopes typically don't have much influence over game balance*. They're only really advantageous in long range engagements and only if you have the accuracy for it.


The Gep Gun sees no benefit, it get's it's own sight, As I have explained before......

Yes SCOPES DO NOT have that much influence over gameplay. So why are we still fucking talking about it? Do Option 1, it is simpler and more intuitive. I have already explained why option 2 is not appropriate. Choice Permanence should apply to dialogue options and choices made by the player of that nature. Choice permanence should not affect how the user interacts with their weapons. It's just dumb. For all you know, the developers probably didn't allow for scope, laser sight and scope detachment due to time constraints, maybe they designed it that way to keep it simpler, or maybe they designed it that way for gameplay. But that is not how I want players interacting with MY weapons and associated attachments, it is restricting what I want players to be able to do with MY weapons too.

So now. if you keep on fighting me on this, all we are going to be doing is wasting more time. And you are taking me away from more productive things like designing weapons.

I WILL REPEAT THIS AGAIN FOR THOSE WHO MISSED IT, THIS WEAPON MOD IS OPTIONAL!!
Last edited by Mortecha on Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Dude, you're blowing up a little again over minor difference of opinion. I thought we've made a lot of progress.
You should have understood that the GEP Gun can't be fitted with a scope because it already has one, this scope can't also be detached. The GEP Gun like the plasma rifle and Sniper rifle have fixed scopes due to specialized nature of these weapons...
I don't believe this was what was specifically defined. Yes it was stated at some point, but it wasn't concluded/agreed upon.
But that is how I do not want MY weapons to be designed, also it is restricting what I want players to be able to do with MY weapons.
Yes, your weapons that I have to program into my mod. You signed up for this pal. It is how it should be done, and how the professionals do it in some capacity. They have disagreements too.
I can understand you blowing up on the matter after posts upon posts of disagreement and getting absolutely nowhere, but we've only just begun discussing how scope detachment should be handled. So let's do it some more:

Yes, if GEP comes pre-fitted with a scope it closes that particular loophole. But then with that and the Plasma Rifle pre-scoped we only have four weapons that actually accept a scope mod, two of which are counter-choices (Pistol and Stealth pistol), leaving only three weapons for a playthrough you're going to walk around with scope-modded. Is there even any point allowing the player to switch scopes between weapons at that point?

And yes, allowing the player to take thier scope off the pistol and stick it on the stealth pistol if they decide they want to switch is a good thing, but the point still stands: Only three weapons in a playthrough (three because the vast majority of players are not going to carry both types of pistols) are going to have a scope mod attached at any given time. One pistol type, the mini-xbow, and the assault gun.

Edit: Sights can be attached to two more in your defense, as the shotguns accept sights mods.

Edit 2: I thought we were going with this:
Pistol: accepts scope and sights mods.
Minicrossbow: sights mods only? accepts scope and sights mods.
Stealth pistol: accepts scope and sights mods.
Both shotguns: accepts sights mods only (isn't a scope on a shotgun impractical too?).
Assault Gun: accepts scope and sights mods.
Rifle: Comes with scope by default. Maybe have the option to take it off and put on a sights mod/iron sights instead?
Plasma Rifle: I'll leave it to you to decide, since it depends heavily on your new design I suppose.
GEP Gun: Scope only (guidance system).

Flamethrower, LAW, PS20 and all the rest no compatibility.

Is all that agreeable?
As I don't recall you objecting to it.
In the above list only the rifle (and potentially the plasma, but preferably not) comes pre-fitted with a scope.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:Dude, you're blowing up a little again over minor difference of opinion. I thought we've made a lot of progress.
We have, and I hope we continue to do so. But sometimes, it's tedious when there is two options, we both oppose it, and the only thing that needs to be made is a choice and no one is making it because both of our arguments are sound from our own perspectives.
Cybernetic Pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote:You should have understood that the GEP Gun can't be fitted with a scope because it already has one, this scope can't also be detached. The GEP Gun like the plasma rifle and Sniper rifle have fixed scopes due to specialized nature of these weapons...
I don't believe this was what was specifically defined. Yes it was stated at some point, but it wasn't concluded/agreed upon.
We should come to a conclusion about this as these three weapons and the scopes they will have, will form loopholes and issues if these scopes can be connected to other weapons. I remember speaking about this quite abit acouple of pages ago. And after the agreement to follow Option 1 in the first place, this would have been agreed upon by default. Aside from that, given how complex this discussion has become and how easy it would be to lose track, I also though that it was a given since there would be blatant loopholes.


Cybernetic Pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote:But that is how I do not want MY weapons to be designed, also it is restricting what I want players to be able to do with MY weapons.
Yes, your weapons that I have to program into my mod. You signed up for this pal. It is how it should be done, and how the professionals do it in some capacity.
I can understand you blowing up on the matter after posts upon posts of disagreement and getting absolutely nowhere, but we've only just begun discussing how scope detachment should be handled. So let's do it some more:

Yes, if GEP comes pre-fitted with a scope it closes that particular loophole. But then with that and the Plasma Rifle pre-scoped we only have four weapons that actually accept a scope mod, two of which are counter-choices (Pistol and Stealth pistol), leaving only three weapons for a playthrough you're going to walk around with scope-modded. Is there even any point allowing the player to switch scopes between weapons at that point?
Firstly, I can just as easily do the programming, but it is your mod so you are right, I was getting annoyed for just the start of a new phase of an old discussion. So lets continue.

That is a good point about the Plasma Rifle, and think that is should join the list of weapons that can have attachable scopes.

Regarding the small number of weapons and the viability of Option 1, make scopes rarer, and yes it is still viable because the player should have the opportunity to make both subjective (due to individual scope aesthetics) and strategic choices regarding how they choose to outfit their weapons (function of scope and capability of weapon equipped too(type, ammo count), situation). Including the fact that they can change a scope over to another weapon with more ammo. We should not be in the business of restricting players this way.

The only problem I have with Option 2 is the binding of scopes to a given weapon. I find this too restrictive when option 1 exists that is more logically sound and intuitive.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Cybernetic pig wrote:Edit 2: I thought we were going with this:
Pistol: accepts scope and sights mods.
Minicrossbow: sights mods only? accepts scope and sights mods.
Stealth pistol: accepts scope and sights mods.
Both shotguns: accepts sights mods only (isn't a scope on a shotgun impractical too?).
Assault Gun: accepts scope and sights mods.
Rifle: Comes with scope by default. Maybe have the option to take it off and put on a sights mod/iron sights instead?
Plasma Rifle: I'll leave it to you to decide, since it depends heavily on your new design I suppose.
GEP Gun: Scope only (guidance system).

Flamethrower, LAW, PS20 and all the rest no compatibility.

Is all that agreeable?
As I don't recall you objecting to it.
In the above list only the rifle (and potentially the plasma, but preferably not) comes pre-fitted with a scope.
I do recall seeing this, and may not have given a definitive yes or no we are in agreement. Seems like I am just as much at fault for skimming details to define the evolving middle ground.


So given the more recent discussions, I propose:

WEAPONS THAT CAN ATTACH/DETACH SCOPES
_______________________________________________________________________________________

- Pistol
- Stealth Pistol
- Mini Crossbow
- Sawed-off Shotgun
- Assault Shotgun
- Assault Rifle
- Plasma Rifle


WEAPONS THAT HAVE FIXED SCOPES DUE TO SPECIALISATION
_______________________________________________________________________________________

- Sniper Rifle
- GEP Gun

Also not sure if iron sights would even be helpful since the crosshair provides excellent aiming at short ranges so would just be more of a gimmick. I think that functionality should be skipped entirely. They will still be present on the models though for decoration.
Last edited by Mortecha on Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Glad you agree the plasma should be unscoped by default. But I think the GEP should too so you don't have access to guided rockets off the bat on lib island (unless you cough up for Kaplan's scope, of course, which you can't afford without first going over the island and getting some credits) and to retain the # of weapons the scope can be attached to to begin with. But yes, reducing the number scope mods encountered in a playthrough (by 1 or 2 at most, ideally) is a legitimate alternative. I'm sure there's five-six currently.
The only problem I have with Option 2 is the binding of scopes to a given weapon. I find this too restrictive when option 1 exists that is more logically sound and intuitive.
It is logically sound and intuitive, but it also reduces the number of weapons that accept the scope (GEP at the very least), is a bit more inconsistent with how the other weapon mods work, and is against the Immersive Sim trademark choice permanence principle.

Like I said, I like both options. I think scope detachment concept 2 is more fitting but still think scope detachment concept 1 is worthy of consideration, especially in the case of sights as more weapons accept it and it is unrelated to the GEP guidance system.
WEAPONS THAT ACCEPT STANDARD SWAPPABLE SCOPES
_______________________________________________________________________________________
- Pistol
- Stealth Pistol
- Mini Crossbow
- Sawed-off Shotgun
- Assault Shotgun
- Assault Rifle
- Plasma Rifle
_______________________________________________________________________________________

WEAPONS THAT HAVE FIXED SCOPES DUE TO SPECIALISATION
- Sniper Rifle
- GEP Gun
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Better and more convincing in favor of scope detachment concept 1.
And we're having scopes on shotguns now? Well, given that they have very good range in DX I can imagine that being rather fun to use for medium-long range engagements. And it can look pretty badass too: http://vtsupply.com/images/MNT_RM870A_APP_1.jpg

Is there anything more that needs to be discussed for or against both concepts? If not, then we should come to a decision.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:Glad you agree the plasma should be unscoped by default. But I think the GEP should too so you don't have access to guided rockets off the bat on lib island (unless you cough up for Kaplan's scope, of course, which you can't afford without first going over the island and getting some credits) and to retain the # of weapons the scope can be attached to to begin with. But yes, reducing the number scope mods encountered in a playthrough (by 1 or 2 at most, ideally) is a legitimate alternative. I'm sure there's five-six currently.
The GEP issue would be a problem. Can it's scope be a seperate attachment/mod all together that can only be applied to the GEP. Once applied, it remains on it permanently (Because who carries two GEP guns, or another weapon that can guide missiles). Other scopes can't be attached to it.

Cybernetic Pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote:The only problem I have with Option 2 is the binding of scopes to a given weapon. I find this too restrictive when option 1 exists that is more logically sound and intuitive.
It is logically sound and intuitive, but it also reduces the number of weapons that accept the scope (GEP at the very least), is a bit more inconsistent with how the other weapon mods work, and is against the Immersive Sim trademark choice permanence principle.
Option 2 is not logically sound because at all because you are binding scopes to a weapon, and any subsequent scopes you attach to it moves the replaced scope in to an invisible and weightless scope bag containing all previous and undesired scopes that can then be retrieved and used on that weapon only.

Option 2 is not intuitive because the player would expect a detached scope to go back into their inventory, and will be confused when it is not there.

Option 1 goes against the "Immersive Sim trademark choice permanence principle", it there is such a thing, because instead of restricting the player in their choice of attaching a scope to a weapon and then only being able to use that scope with that weapon, they can then detach something designed to be detachable and then reattach it to another weapon the user thinks it would be more useful for.

Can you see the differentiation I have made between the GEP Gun scope being a permanent choice compared to swapping scopes on weapons that can have attachable and detachable scopes where the player is likely to have more than 4 weapons capable of attaching scopes too in their inventory?

EDIT:

WEAPONS THAT ACCEPT STANDARD SWAPPABLE SCOPES
_______________________________________________________________________________________
- Pistol
- Stealth Pistol
- Mini Crossbow
- Sawed-off Shotgun
- Assault Shotgun
- Assault Rifle
- Plasma Rifle
_______________________________________________________________________________________

WEAPONS THAT HAVE FIXED SCOPES DUE TO SPECIALISATION
- Sniper Rifle
_______________________________________________________________________________________

WEAPONS THAT HAVE UNIQUE PERMANENTLY ATTACHABLE SCOPES DUE TO SPECIALISATION
- GEP Gun
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Cybernetic Pig wrote:Better and more convincing in favor of scope detachment concept 1.
And we're having scopes on shotguns now? Well, given that they have very good range in DX I can imagine that being rather fun to use for medium-long range engagements. And it can look pretty badass too: http://vtsupply.com/images/MNT_RM870A_APP_1.jpg
Don't forget the Sabot rounds:P
Cybernetic Pig wrote:Is there anything more that needs to be discussed for or against both concepts? If not, then we should come to a decision.
I have included more points in the post for Option 1. I have been arguing for the case of Option 1 the whole time so this comes as no surprise.
Last edited by Mortecha on Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

The GEP issue would be a problem. Can it's scope be a seperate attachment/mod all together that can only be applied to the GEP. Once applied, it remains on it permanently (Because who carries two GEP guns, or another weapon that can guide missiles). Other scopes can't be attached to it.
We were thinking the same thing.

WARNING! POTENTIAL FEATURE BLOAT POST.

Hmm, to resolve the issue of having access to a guided GEP right off the bat perhaps it needs it's own specialized guidance system mod kit found a little later in the game. With the latter it wouldn't encourage abuse of the detach/attach system. And maybe we could add a few more specialiized mod kits that grant unique behavior to a weapon, because that'd be extra fun.

Just to tempt the idea I'm going to throw another lazily defined concept out there:

Universal Specialized Mod kits <- lol stupid oxymoron. Needs a better name.

when attached to a weapon:

GEP: guidance system scope
Pistol/Stealth Pistol: ricochet bullets (preferably something more sensible).
Sniper Rifle: additional armor penetration (more effective vs bots).
Mini-crossbow: boosts clip size by an additional 50%
Plasma rifle: fires four plasma bolts per shot/increases bolt blast radius/increases bolt projectile speed.
Flamethrower: reduces ammo consumption by x% (would need to be reasonably balanced).
shotguns: incendiary buckshot (as in IW)?

And maybe it even results in a unique visual mod on the weapon.

You can only find up to two in a playthrough forcing specialization and tough choices as per standard DX design. None can be detached.
And again the player must accept the utterly illogical notion of all this stuff being made for weapons and shoved in one mod kit. But it's this way as opposed to how Human Revolution handled it because it enforces tough choices and specialization rather than being linear upgrade that you always put on the same gun every playthrough.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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