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Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion 
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Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
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Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
Quote:
Plasma Rifle only shoots one projectile at a time, with a 25% increase in ROF standard. I'm not a fan of shooting 3 projectiles at a time. It's a waste of valuable ammo and causes too much collateral.


It's another illogical DX thing, but it makes it interesting in the hands of the enemy. Interesting to dodge.
Personally I've always wanted a full-auto plasma rifle, but I'm not sure how I feel about changing it (plus whatever text/lore that refers to the triple shot behavior). so I guess we'll have to dispute that too. In the past I made an alt ammo type that made the weapon full-auto, but it was a bit silly and I scrapped it. It never saw a public release although there is a video of it.

Looking back it doesn't look that bad. I think the biggest problem was the ammo had to be so scarce to avoid it being OP.

Quote:
Could we not just borrow from HR and have an NPC weapons dealer, it still retains the choice, and the cost can dictate player ability to gain access to them. Having a shop would just be too campy.


NPC vendors are not an option as no JCD voice actor. I don't see how GMDX-style self service display case shops are any more or less campy though. Do you not buy weapon accessories from weapon stores? And it's the future where there will be far more automation, like cleaner and repair bots :P
I was just sure to add the self service cases in high-end/corporate-owned stores to fit the theme of lower class being in turmoil and left behind technologically while upper class having access to fancy tech.

Quote:
Grenades act like grenades, and introduce mines to have the option to attach to walls.


Why? Lot of work involved in changing that and I don't see much reason why multi-functional LAMs (which are pretty iconic) are not good enough.

That's another thing I rarely change unless there's very good reasoning: iconic things. Fans get real butthurt about that and it's understandable. I still get occasional comments about the nerfing the Dragon's Tooth Sword despite how utterly necessary it was and just makes the game better in a multitude of ways.

Quote:
Grenade Launcher as attachable weapon mod to Assault Rifle and Assault Shotgun.


Like I said before, things are balanced around the pre-existence of the 'nade launcher and the exclusive 15-20 explosives it provides you. Wouldn't want to change that just because it's more realistic. Huge balance shift would be the result of that.

Quote:
Increase effectiveness and rarity of GMDX introduced weapon mods like ROF.


Why? Increasing the effectiveness but decreasing the number of them just decreases quantity of choices you get and the reward value of the (often secret) locations you find them in. And it'd be another thing creating inconsistency with how the other mods work. A clip mod grants +10% clip size and a weapon can have up to five. A rate of fire mod grants +10% and a weapon can have up to five. You can find approximately 15 of each spread out across the whole game, allowing up to three weapons to be fully modded. No idea why that should be changed.

Quote:
Introduce three new weapons:


New weapons I don't take much issue with, providing they fit in to existing systems without much resistance. e.g SMG will have to use the same ammo as the assault gun for balancing. Probably doesn't have to be unrealistic since some SMGs use .45ACP these days, but I'm not the gun expert. Nonetheless "it's the future!" often can suffice.

Snub nose or Heavy revolver it'd probably be best to pick one. Introducing more than one new ammo type at most at this point should be avoided. The balance in GMDX is highly refined and I don't want to disrupt it too heavily.

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Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:25 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:54 pm
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MJ12

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 453
Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
SMGs are differentiated from assault rifles by the ammo they use - SMGs are fitted to use pistol ammo, and assault rifles have their own class of ammo. Generally, pistol ammo is fat and short and assault rifle's ammo is long and thin.
Seeing as the stealth pistol is already full-auto, I don't think an SMG is necessary, although getting more weapon variety is always a plus.

Revolvers are an interesting option, too. I'd like to see one in game to supplement the pistol and the stealth pistol, as it can be a less-moddable yet high-powered alternative to both. Coupling this with lower rate of fire and a long reload time can make for an interesting dynamic that makes it a good starting weapon, but due to diminishing return it will be less useful than the regular pistols by the endgame unless supplemented heavily by augs (such as targeting) and general proficiency.


Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:07 pm
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Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2283
Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
I'm guessing the quantity of ROF mod suggestion is related to how many ROF mods you seem to come across in the beginning of the game (while hardly any are found late game). In v9.0 this is changed and there is a more even distribution of ROF mods, like all the other mod types.

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Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:17 pm
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UNATCO

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:17 am
Posts: 118
Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
On Mines
Agreed on the mine idea, was just an idea. and the LAM is iconic so that idea is moot.

On Revolver
If there is to be only one revolver then it would be better to merge the two, so it's still suitable for thugs and civs to use but also packs a punch. Consider it an early to mid game weapon used to take out opponents with less shots at the expense of only being able to fire six shots. The underworlds answer to discretely dispatch augmented opponents and police officers effectively. It will have a smaller profile than the pistol to make it more concealable.

Assault Rifle Update
Randomly found this article that reinforces the mag design of the assault rifle. So will not be using conventional mags as I'd planned. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015 ... smg-i-mag/

Plasma Rifle
Not a fan of the tri shot. It will still be rather interesting with one projectile at a time but with higher ROF. As for full auto, that could be a unique mod for it, it can be called an "Advanced Cooling Module" or something along those likes to facilitate the ability to fire at full auto.

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Quote:
Plasma Rifle only shoots one projectile at a time, with a 25% increase in ROF standard. I'm not a fan of shooting 3 projectiles at a time. It's a waste of valuable ammo and causes too much collateral.


It's another illogical DX thing, but it makes it interesting in the hands of the enemy. Interesting to dodge.
Personally I've always wanted a full-auto plasma rifle, but I'm not sure how I feel about changing it (plus whatever text/lore that refers to the triple shot behavior). so I guess we'll have to dispute that too. In the past I made an alt ammo type that made the weapon full-auto, but it was a bit silly and I scrapped it. It never saw a public release although there is a video of it.


I quite like the look of it. But would probably just keep it too the standard ammo type. As for ammo, you could scale it so that one shot is one third the ammo cost that it is currently. There would still need to be some tweaks but for the most part, I think it will fit nicely.

Grenade Launcher Attachment
I would like to see this done most of all, after scopes. This is because equipping every assault rifle with a grenade launcher doesn't make sense. Especially when the ammo for it is quite rare anyway. And on the lore side of things. Corporations wouldn't pay more money to equip their personnel with extra equipment they wouldn't use, as grenade launchers are used in specific situations. In those situations then you should definitely see them, but not every instance of running into someone with an Assault Rifle. You also currently do not see NPCs using them as well, which would be a nice change if they did.

The Assault Shotgun is also another weapon that would benefit from the ability to have one be attachable, as it most certainly be used in those situations where they would be suitable and usable.

And of course, it will require some balancing, but I see the end result being more beneficial. I would even be happy if it was unable to be detached after attachment to conform to other weapon mods except scopes:P

GMDX Clip Mods
After your explanations they should remain as they are:) Again another idea I'm throwing out there.

SMG
Would be a beneficial addon. Would make a suitable mid to late game user of 10mm ammunition. This would also increase the availability of 10mm ammo if the player decided to continue to use the pistol.

This weapon would also solve the problem of mainly having opponents only using Assault Rifles in the late game by introducing more variation. It would be awesome to see soldiers with both Assault Rifles and SMGs firing at you simultaneously.

Stealth Pistol
To make room for the SMG, would make this semi-automatic. But allow for a mod later to change it to full auto at the user discretion (can even be one of those unique mods you are keen about). Similar to my idea for the pistol.

Automated Gun Shops For Unique Addons
I think that may be the best compromise we have for this feature. Just as long as it doesn't look like that other shop in HK. This would have to look professional.


Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:54 pm
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Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2283
Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
Bitch, what's wrong with my display cases? :P Or maybe you mean the vanilla shop the cases are placed in that doesn't have many aesthetic refinements in v8.0...

Grenade launcher change is a no-go. Yes it's totally illogical, but it is how it is.

Quote:
SMG
Would be a beneficial addon. Would make a suitable mid to late game user of 10mm ammunition. This would also increase the availability of 10mm ammo if the player decided to continue to use the pistol.


Too much realism focus. You're going to have to dial it back if this mod is to fit in with DX's systems. An SMG using 10mm ammo wouldn't be balanced because SMG would have to do 3 base damage (same as assault rifle, again regardless of logic), while pistols do triple-quadruple that. there'd be no reason to use the SMG as it'd just rinse your ammo that is far more powerful when used in a pistol. Additionally, raising 10mm ammo for pistol is not a good idea as the current counts are perfect they're moderately powerful weapons. If there is a SMG, it has to use the same ammo as the assault gun. No exceptions.

Deus Ex's weaponry is only loosely based in realism and to "fix" it it'd need a total overhaul of all systems, and it wouldn't be a good idea even if doing a total overhaul for a variety of reasons. e.g assault gun absolutely must do unrealistic damage otherwise you'd be one shot killed all the damn time.

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Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:20 pm
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UNATCO

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:17 am
Posts: 118
Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
Cybernetic pig wrote:
Bitch, what's wrong with my display cases? :P Or maybe you mean the vanilla shop the cases are placed in that doesn't have many aesthetic refinements in v8.0...


haha yeah they are horrendous. That arrangement would be appropriate for buying instant noodles and other fast food sundries. Not weapons and mod kits.... The concept needs to be refined to be appropriate to what is being sold. The shop would have to resemble a bank with automated turrets etc...

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Grenade launcher change is a no-go. Yes it's totally illogical, but it is how it is.


I don't accept that, and I don't see why it can't be a thing. Again it's for these weapons I'm making so is completely optional, and it's something I would like.

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Quote:
SMG
Would be a beneficial addon. Would make a suitable mid to late game user of 10mm ammunition. This would also increase the availability of 10mm ammo if the player decided to continue to use the pistol.


Too much realism focus. You're going to have to dial it back if this mod is to fit in with DX's systems. An SMG using 10mm ammo wouldn't be balanced because SMG would have to do 3 base damage (same as assault rifle, again regardless of logic), while pistols do triple-quadruple that. there'd be no reason to use the SMG as it'd just rinse your ammo that is far more powerful when used in a pistol. Additionally, raising 10mm ammo for pistol is not a good idea as the current counts are perfect they're moderately powerful weapons. If there is a SMG, it has to use the same ammo as the assault gun. No exceptions.

Deus Ex's weaponry is only loosely based in realism and to "fix" it it'd need a total overhaul of all systems, and it wouldn't be a good idea even if doing a total overhaul for a variety of reasons. e.g assault gun absolutely must do unrealistic damage otherwise you'd be one shot killed all the damn time.


Well this is why we are discussing it. To refine the concept so that DOES fit.

Regarding ammo though. It would be more appropriate for the Pistol and Stealth Pistol to use .45 ACP and the SMG to use 10mm if that is the case. The Revolver would also use .45 ACP too.


Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:33 pm
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MJ12

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 453
Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
To be honest, the shotgun in Deus Ex was always a complementary weapon to the rifle build - I don't see why it can't hold the grenade launcher, especially if it isn't a permanent modification.
A problem might lie in the coding of it, and it might be worthwhile to have a standalone grenade launcher that is part of the demolitions skill tree. That will allow for other kinds of grenades to be launched with it - 40mm gas grenades, for instance.

I don't think gimping the stealth pistol is a good idea to allow for the SMG - all it'll do is create too much weapon overlap that's spread out between 2 weapon and ammo types.
The current way it is in GMDX is that pistols and shotguns are only used by civilians and and lawbreakers, and the weapon of choice for military enemies is the assault rifle. SMGs will be used by lawbreakers(?), which are pretty scarce by the end-game. Military enemies using either special-purpose weapons, or a general purpose infantry weapon is both logical and realistic.


Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:03 pm
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Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2283
Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
Don't mistake this for arrogance, but before you say half-assed shit like "and don't give me that choice permanence bs" take into consideration that I know the design principles, existing systems and general design extremely well, and have been doing this for four years, like no other mod has. I generally have a far better understanding of what would fit in well.
Yes, I know, they're your weapons, but you're trying to fit them into a vast complex web of existing systems and I'm generally very good that at, as has been established with the reception of v8.0.

Making the grenade launcher a weapon mod should only be considered if the mod kits are easily available to all builds, essentially given for free in easy to find locations. All builds should have guaranteed access to those 15-20 grenades as it's perhaps the single most powerful tool in the game that all builds currently generally use at some point (because there's little to no consequences for doing so), and much of the game balance takes consideration of it.

Grenade launcher mod on the assault shotgun should not be considered unless we have some way to scale the value of the sawed-off accordingly. I guess we can do that with the unique specialized mods concept.

Quote:
That arrangement would be appropriate for buying instant noodles and other fast food sundries. Not weapons and mod kits.... The concept needs to be refined to be appropriate to what is being sold. The shop would have to resemble a bank with automated turrets etc...


You've not explained why the current setup is "unprofessional". Currently, weapons are not sold in any display case, only general utilities, therefore no extensive defenses are necessary.

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Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:29 pm
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UNATCO

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:17 am
Posts: 118
Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
I don't doubt your knowledge about all of the systems and gameplay mechanics and balance for a second. And this discussion and your input is valuable as we can come to compromises about features I would like for this mod, for these weapons I am making. Don't think for a second that I take that for granted, no matter how frustrating the process has been becoming, and will become. After all of these things have been covered, I think that this mod and these weapons will be fantastic. But it takes hard work to get there.

Ok, would just making it a mod for the Assault Rifle only be a better option?

My reasoning for choosing to include the Assault Shotgun was that it would be useful for it in similar circumstances where a grenade launcher would be useful. But if that is the issue then I'd quite happily drop it in favor of leaving it with the Assault Rifle, but making it an attachment for it.

Regarding the shop. At the moment it is not a problem. Just looks weird. But if it was to contain these unique weapon mods. It would need a different setting. Something more Professional and exclusive with the turrets etc etc... That is what I am referring too by Professional. Nothing to do with your work.


Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:59 pm
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Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2283
Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
Mortecha wrote:
Regarding the shop. At the moment it is not a problem. Just looks weird. But if it was to contain these unique weapon mods. It would need a different setting. Something more Professional and exclusive with the turrets etc etc... That is what I am referring too by Professional. Nothing to do with your work.


Yeah, I'd probably have to build a weapon store somewhere appropriate to break into. Similar to IW's weapon shop in Trier.

Quote:
Ok, would just making it a mod for the Assault Rifle only be a better option?


Probably, yeah.

Quote:
My reasoning for choosing to include the Assault Shotgun was that it would be useful for it in similar circumstances where a grenade launcher would be useful. But if that is the issue then I'd quite happily drop it in favor of leaving it with the Assault Rifle, but making it an attachment for it.


If you want to do it for the assault rifle, go ahead. I guess it will have to be that weapon's unique mod, will be an exception to the rule in that it will be free and encountered in a couple difficult to miss military locations (UNATCO Headquarters, Secret Mj12 Base Armory).

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Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:13 pm
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UNATCO

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:17 am
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Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
Cybernetic pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote:
Regarding the shop. At the moment it is not a problem. Just looks weird. But if it was to contain these unique weapon mods. It would need a different setting. Something more Professional and exclusive with the turrets etc etc... That is what I am referring too by Professional. Nothing to do with your work.


Yeah, I'd probably have to build a weapon store somewhere appropriate to break into. Similar to IW's weapon shop in Trier.


This is now sounding very interesting. I'm liking the sound of it.


Cybernetic pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote:
Ok, would just making it a mod for the Assault Rifle only be a better option?


Probably, yeah.


Mortecha wrote:
My reasoning for choosing to include the Assault Shotgun was that it would be useful for it in similar circumstances where a grenade launcher would be useful. But if that is the issue then I'd quite happily drop it in favor of leaving it with the Assault Rifle, but making it an attachment for it.


If you want to do it for the assault rifle, go ahead. I guess it will have to be that weapon's unique mod, will be an exception to the rule in that it will be free and encountered in a couple difficult to miss military locations (UNATCO Headquarters, Secret Mj12 Base Armory).


Excellent. I like the sound of and having the player find the attachment in those difficult to miss and logical locations.


Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:05 am
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UNATCO

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:17 am
Posts: 118
Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
I was just watching this again v7 1 and was thinking that I like the Plasma Rifle blue bolts and explosion effects better than the green one. The sound is also better too. Have you considered replacing the vanilla sound and effect with this one?

And having the Plasma Rifle as single shot initially with an upgrade module that grants automatic fire would be the way to go for it's unique weapon mod.

And if you're uncomfortable with doing that for the vanilla and HDTP Plasma Rifle, they wouldn't have to change, but I would love it that way for the redesigned one.



Have been thinking about the Mini-Crossbow.

Do you think the mini crossbow is illogical? And if so have you thought about making it a full sized crossbow instead. Something like this:

Image

Another thing regarding this is have you considered making head shots with tranq darts lethal?


Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:31 am
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NSF
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Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
I'll just throw in quickly my opinion on the previous few topics. Maybe someone finds something useful in it.

- Minicrossbow is ok. I mean yeah nobody really uses nowadays tranq dart to knock out people, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief because it's the future so you could say maybe they figured out a how to use it effectively, but not deadly vs humans. I had the pleasure to use one of these big crossbows in the past and I couldn't really imagine it as a replacement for the minicrossbow, because these things are powerful as shit and shooting someone in the head wouldn't be very pleasent xd Making crossbow headshots lethal might be more realistic, but it would kinda mess up the entire non-lethal combat in GMDX. In order to knock your enemy out instantly you have to aim for the head which means it requires some skill. Yeah it doesn't make any sense from a realism perspective, but I think CyberP might back me up on this one and say that sometimes you have to put realism on the side in the favor of a better more diverse and fun gameplay.
Although, having a bigass crossbow in the game as an alternative for the sniper rifle would be kinda cool. Could do more damage, but since its projectile doesn't hit instantly like in the case of the sniper rifle the chance that you miss would be greater so the better damage would be somewhat balanced out.

- The stealth pistol is already sort of an SMG in GMDX. Only thing I would change about it is that I'd give it 9mm ammo instead of 10mm, because currently it doesn't seem like a good idea to choose stealth pistol over the regular pistol. So why not use it both in the same time? Yeah, you could argue that this removes the player choise between the two weapons, but to be honest, it's really no contest. Since the regular pistol can be silenced it's simply a better choise, than the stealth pistol.

- Well according to its description the plasma rifle's firing mechanism works pretty much like a railgun meaning it uses magnets to speed up and shoot the super-heated plasma balls. Which means I have no idea how they end up being scattered all over the place after the weapon fired. I'm also in the favor of making it fire one ball at a time. Although keeping the 3-ball shot mechanism and making the weapon's model resemble a futuristic "plasma shotgun" could also be pretty awesome.

- Well if you want to give the shotgun an attachment, then maybe Invisible War's shotgun smoke grenade attachment would be an idea worth considering. Basically it would create a smoke cloud which would cause npcs to rub their eyes giving the player time to knock them out with the shotgun rubber ammo.

Now I'm off to bed xd

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http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx A mod that improves Deus Ex's gameplay, maps, visuals, audio etc. whilst staying loyal to its original design? Yes my friend, you may touch yourself with the light now.


Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:36 pm
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UNATCO

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:24 am
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Location: Sweden
Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
Mortecha wrote:
Do you think the mini crossbow is illogical? And if so have you thought about making it a full sized crossbow instead.


The minicrossbow is iconic and I do not find it illogical.

Quote:
Another thing regarding this is have you considered making head shots with tranq darts lethal?


Personally, I would not like that. The tranq darts are the epitome of non lethal solution and I would not want them to ever cause death.


Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:13 am
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UNATCO

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:17 am
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Post Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
All good. I have taken these points on board and will stick with the Mini Crossbow configuration.

Regarding lethal tranq bolts, to not affect balance I think that would be better. Even though logically any bolt to the head would be a kill shot haha.


Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:07 am
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