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Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion 
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MJ12

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Post Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion
No one picked up the glove, and I figured it might be OK to start a topic on my own.

This topic is for weapon fanatics who'd like to comment and suggest improvements for the HDTP weapon models currently used in GMDX. There's already a modeler working on those weapons - Mortecha, but he is open to suggestions and an open discussion.

The main goal here is weapon identification by roles, realism in operation and implementation, and in game viability. Don't suggest the BFG as a replacement for the GEP gun, but comparing the GEP gun with the Javelin and the Kornet is probably a worthwhile venture.

EDIT: Renamed the topic once and once more.


Last edited by Made in China on Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:45 pm
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UNATCO
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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
Here's my idea for how the scope should work. 1 Scope mod is just the default scope, with no special features. For example, the GEP gun won't have the rocket camera, but will just have a regular scope. Every subsequent scope mod attached will add on a special feature (GEP gun will get the rocket cam, perhaps the sniper rifle can get a toggle-able infrared). I think this would be a great change because later on in the game, scope mods become useless because all of the current weapons you have already have a scope. Also, the GEP gun immediately getting the rocket cam feels a little broken.

Also, weapon balancing. One of the weapons I almost never use is the Plasma Rifle. It just feels like it doesn't do enough damage. Maybe if it had a slight damage increase, and more knockback towards enemies, it would be a balanced weapon. I'd imagine getting hit by a bolt of plasma would knock the shit out of me.

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Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:39 pm
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MJ12

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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
I partially agree with that line of thought - different scopes requiring additional mods - but I don't think adding thermal imaging is productive. It'll probably devalue the vision aug and the tech goggles.
Maybe adding the different levels of zoom separately, and for edge cases (such as the GEP gun) adding functionality? There are some scopes that work like that in real life - the regular lens gives you targeting reticle, and multiplication lenses give you the zoom, night vision or thermal sight (which, again, might not be appropriate).


Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:59 pm
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UNATCO
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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
Here's my idea. For shotguns, the second scope mod adds a second reticle that shows the spread of the pellets (which changes based on accuracy mods and skills). The player can add an additional weapon mod to any scope that will show if the target is wearing armor or not (Which the targeting aug doesn't show).

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Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:27 am
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Illuminati

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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
Bogie wrote:
Here's my idea for how the scope should work. 1 Scope mod is just the default scope, with no special features. For example, the GEP gun won't have the rocket camera, but will just have a regular scope. Every subsequent scope mod attached will add on a special feature (GEP gun will get the rocket cam, perhaps the sniper rifle can get a toggle-able infrared). I think this would be a great change because later on in the game, scope mods become useless because all of the current weapons you have already have a scope. Also, the GEP gun immediately getting the rocket cam feels a little broken.


I like the general idea, or intentions behind it, it's just that asking players to attach two scope weapon mods to a weapon to achieve full functionality is a little out there...

Also agreed with Made In China on thermal scopes making vision/tech goggles redundant. Currently you can use them while looking through any scope to achieve the same effect, but it costs something (tech goggle power/bioenergy).

I think it's just best to accept that there is more scope mods in the game you can ever find use for just like vanilla, as disappointing as that is. Unless you have more ideas?

Quote:
Also, weapon balancing. One of the weapons I almost never use is the Plasma Rifle. It just feels like it doesn't do enough damage. Maybe if it had a slight damage increase, and more knockback towards enemies, it would be a balanced weapon. I'd imagine getting hit by a bolt of plasma would knock the shit out of me.


Have you tried it in v8.0, fully modded and skilled? It's rather beastly, and is even good vs bots. Each bolt does twenty base damage. Fully modded (don't forget damage mods!) and skilled it's a powerhouse. Just avoid using it on commandos as they have decent defense against it, though unloading on their heads with a fully leveled plasma rifle will still put them down reasonably fast.

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Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:28 am
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MJ12

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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
Scopes - unique or generic?
There are two different views on that topic in the GMDX Art Topic, so I thought it might be worthwhile to give my analysis here.
In my opinion, scopes can be unique to each weapon, as all weapons have different functionality and benefit from different reticles, zoom and scope size. However, all scopes should be assembled from generic parts - that'd make the scope mod actually contain those parts (like a Lego box) and the operator actually assembling it on the weapon by themselves.

So, what should the scope mod contain?
1. A rail attachment system.
2. A holographic or projection sight for the reticle - may contain two or four different reticles with their placement adjusted by Allen keys, with the default position as their convergence in the middle.
3. 2 multiplication sights - one for x2, one for x4 - this allows for the most common x2/x4/x8 zooms.
4. A case to hold all of the parts together. This may be separated into 3 different cases that can be assembled together, as by now we've used 3 different inner parts (reticle projection mechanism, and 2 lenses).
5. GEP gun special case - a screen hooked up to the warhead's optics, with controls for manual steering. May be justified with a direct neural connection to the augs, and not requiring a screen? This would only require an antenna and some sort of communication interface (I like JC Denton being an Apple hipster and only using FireWire).

The second-to-last one I want to touch upon - it allows for handguns to only have the projection reticle and a fixed zoom using only one part, and for rifles to have 3 levels of zoom. This also allows for shotgun-use to see the boundaries of the shot spread using only the projection sight. The more components a gun requires will make the scope bigger, and so the scope can be unique while still comprised of generic parts.
Figuring out what these generic parts should look like so they'll look consistent AND good on all weapons is another matter.


Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:46 pm
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Illuminati

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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
Actually, I was making case for semi-generic as you have there. Basically scopes that fit a mold. There's subtle differences when applied to each weapon, but you can tell they all came from the same type of "universal scope mod kit". I just don't want to see Red Dots and Hi-tech Guidance systems and futuristic ACOGs all supposedly coming from this same mod pack, with one or two exceptions.
...but I'm willing to consider something like that if people provide alternate scope view textures. It would be far more diverse.

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Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:22 pm
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MJ12

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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
Personally, if I were to make a universal weapons platform, I'd use reflex sights as a base for the reticles - they are the slimmest, and can provide different reticles for different weapons. Radioactive illumination (such as tritium-phosphor) also eliminates the need for batteries.
The configuration I'm thinking of is, from the back of the gun to the front:
Rifles: x2 sight - reflex sight - x4 sight
Shotguns: reflex sight (area)
Pistols: reflex sight + x2 sight (built in - you won't be able to change zoom levels when using it)
Plasma rifle: ??? - has a spread, so shotgun reflex, but maybe also have a modular x2 multiplication there also?

MSPaint skillz: http://imgur.com/a/THSkp
Maybe consider changing the pistols to an x4 sight instead of the x2 sight, as it only appears in the rifles.


Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:32 pm
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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
Red dot sights seem to make sense for the time period, since they're used more commonly today then conventional scopes (with the exception of sniper rifles). Although personally, I'm in favour of a semi-original concept for a scope. Something like a nano "On the fly" reticle inside of the actual scope, that constructs and adjusts to it's target (changing colours depending on likeliness of hitting). Now that I think about it, it makes sense that there are more scopes then needed, since the player is constantly changing up there inventory to adapt with the enemies they'll be facing.

Laser sights. I already mentioned this to CyberP, but basically; enemies will run away from laser sights near them. I thought this would be cool so that players have to know where they should activate there laser sights. Maybe as a hardcore feature since it would be punishing as hell for first time players.

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Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:14 pm
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MJ12

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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
Regarding the sights, I don't know. We can either take it the futuristic route and have more freedom, or have the more realistic route and have base parts that cannot be changed. With us well into the 3D printing age and modular self-assembling nano-machines, it becomes possible to argue for both sides - I'm in the realistic camp, as it works just as well and lets the player know they aren't creating things out of thin air (like 3D printing almost is).

Enemies running from lasers isn't even true nowadays - most lasers are invisible and in the IR range, and are only visible through either night vision goggles, the weapon sight or (more commonly used) special goggles that are shielded and allow the wearer to see IR (similar to what glass smiths use).
The fact that you don't even have to use the sights to know where your gun is pointing at is the main reason why the IR goggles were adopted - it allows for much more peripheral vision, and you'd expect JC to have them built-in to his shades or his eyes.

Normal laser pointers have their uses, though - but they are generally for multi-squad or more operations, when you want other people to know where you're point at.


Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:43 pm
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UNATCO

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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
I was waiting until I have more models to show before I was going to create a new topic. But this will be good for these sorts of discussions such as scopes and the like.

To copy what I have mentioned in the art thread, which is appropriate to this discussion,

I think it would be a good middle ground to get away from the magicness of my previous suggestion (one scope mod which can attach to any weapon and shows the desired scope suitable for the weapons role). It will add slightly more complexity to the game but you could have 2 different types of scopes, and then allow the player to apply them to any weapon they wish. A simplified version to how Farcry 3 and 4 does it. So you would have Short enclosed reflex sight (not a Holosight), and a Medium range sight for longer engagements. Both do not have the capability to zoom in and out.

GEP gun/ Plasma rifle and Sniper rifle should still have custom sights that are fitted to the weapon already. As I think using a standard sights for these would look weird and out of place as these specific weapon applications are highly specialised. The Sniper Rifle sight can zoom in and out as the sight in the GMDX does already.

I think the above suggestion actually forms a perfect middle ground, where logic remains intact at a small expense of slight increase in game complexity.


Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:03 pm
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MJ12

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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
I kind of agree that variable zoom should be only in select guns - the sniper rifle, the assault rifle and the plasma rifle. They are all big enough and their projectiles accurate enough to justify a big scope, and they all still need to have their functionality for the short-range.
In the case of the pistols, I think that a constant magnification might still be necessary - otherwise, it would impact the viability of the crossbow (and thus non-lethal runs), and make pistols very inferior to rifles and impact overall game balance.
I still think that having 3 basic parts instead of 2 is better - the guns in Deus Ex are varied, and they support different approaches. Getting everything to conform to 1 of 2 gameplay choices is way more limiting than 1 of 4.

The Plasma Rifle scope, well, that's an interesting concept, actually. Maybe have the scope slot there by default, but lacking the zoom optics? Maybe like a rectangle that already houses a custom reticle for regular aiming, and only needs the magnification itself? That could work out really well, the more I think about it - all of the Plasma Rifle models that were created until now didn't show any way of actually aiming with that thing.

The same concept could be applied to the GEP gun - it will already have the controls in a side panel, but it will lack the reticle. Whenever you use/install the scope it'll pop out. It'll look similar enough, although it could only be explained by magic.
I'm still kind of attached to my idea of JC Denton controlling the missile using an antenna on the GEP gun and a fiber-optic nerve feeding him the image - it also corresponds way better to what the player is actually experiencing while controlling the missile, even though it's currently not that realistic.


Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:31 pm
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UNATCO

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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
Made in China wrote:
I kind of agree that variable zoom should be only in select guns - the sniper rifle, the assault rifle and the plasma rifle. They are all big enough and their projectiles accurate enough to justify a big scope, and they all still need to have their functionality for the short-range.
In the case of the pistols, I think that a constant magnification might still be necessary - otherwise, it would impact the viability of the crossbow (and thus non-lethal runs), and make pistols very inferior to rifles and impact overall game balance.
I still think that having 3 basic parts instead of 2 is better - the guns in Deus Ex are varied, and they support different approaches. Getting everything to conform to 1 of 2 gameplay choices is way more limiting than 1 of 4.


Only the Sniper Rifle and Binoculars should have variable zoom. Plasma Rifle will have a custom one and Assault Rifle will use one of the stock ones. This also makes the Binoculars worth using in the early game when the player does not have the Sniper Rifle. In fact, why not also make it for Plasma Rifle as I don't see any harm in it either. But definitely not for Assault Rifle, it's zoom will remain static as it uses the stock scopes.

Please elaborate your point about the Pistol and Crossbow.

Made in China wrote:
The Plasma Rifle scope, well, that's an interesting concept, actually. Maybe have the scope slot there by default, but lacking the zoom optics? Maybe like a rectangle that already houses a custom reticle for regular aiming, and only needs the magnification itself? That could work out really well, the more I think about it - all of the Plasma Rifle models that were created until now didn't show any way of actually aiming with that thing.


Exactly, I have some reticle designs in mind already, and the scope has to be different to look as though it was designed for the Plasma Rifle alone, and also match the Plasma Rifle's aesthetic.

Made in China wrote:
The same concept could be applied to the GEP gun - it will already have the controls in a side panel, but it will lack the reticle. Whenever you use/install the scope it'll pop out. It'll look similar enough, although it could only be explained by magic.
I'm still kind of attached to my idea of JC Denton controlling the missile using an antenna on the GEP gun and a fiber-optic nerve feeding him the image - it also corresponds way better to what the player is actually experiencing while controlling the missile, even though it's currently not that realistic.


Actually I was thinking of that too, just have the image appear in your in your vision. I don't see how that would be considered magic at all. And nor should the exact details matter too much. There wouldn't even need to be a direct connection between the GEP Gun and JC. Think UHF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-auto ... e_of_sight . It seems it does this already.


Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:16 am
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MJ12

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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
Mortecha wrote:
Only the Sniper Rifle and Binoculars should have variable zoom. Plasma Rifle will have a custom one and Assault Rifle will use one of the stock ones. This also makes the Binoculars worth using in the early game when the player does not have the Sniper Rifle. In fact, why not also make it for Plasma Rifle as I don't see any harm in it either. But definitely not for Assault Rifle, it's zoom will remain static as it uses the stock scopes.

Please elaborate your point about the Pistol and Crossbow.

Didn't consider the binoculars - they were a pretty useless until now, it always seemed more worthwhile to just carry the sniper rifle. Good point about them and variable zoom.
My point is that "Pistols", both as a skill and a weapon type, should be unique from "Rifles" - but still comparable in gameplay viability. By entirely removing the zoom functionality of those weapons it's damaging their viability, especially when pistols are mid-range headshot weapons (as they lack the DPS of the assault rifles and the shotguns).
Realistically, pistols don't really need magnification or scopes as you'll be hard pressed to find one that's accurate for more than 25 meters. Gameplay wise, however, they do need both, and not just a reflex sight.

Mortecha wrote:
Actually I was thinking of that too, just have the image appear in your in your vision. I don't see how that would be considered magic at all. And nor should the exact details matter too much. There wouldn't even need to be a direct connection between the GEP Gun and JC. Think UHF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-auto ... e_of_sight . It seems it does this already.

The GEP Gun is akin to the Spike NLOS:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_(missile)
Can be laser guided, can be guided manually, is capable of fire-and-forget and fire-and-change its lock-on to different targets (well, not that part).
While most version of that missile are wired, the NLOS is wireless - and it needs one heck of an antenna to be operated. It's true for JC Denton, too - if he were to communicate with it, he'd need an interface to do it. And if he had it built in him that entire time - why'd he need to mod the launcher for it to work? He'd need a translation mechanism - a small computer, and either another antenna to transmit it to him directly, or a direct connection. I favor the direct connection method from both lag and data output reasons, and the fact it cements and explains things rather than use technology which seems like magic(TM) without any lore to back it up.

In my previous post, when saying it's magic, I was referring to the scope mod adding a control screen to the GEP gun the same way it adds projection sights. The control panel itself will always be there and flush against the launcher, and when the scope mod is added it'll pop out and actually have a screen.
The reason why it's magic is because projection sights don't really have any input mechanism. It's thematically appropriate, but will never pass the realism test.


Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:38 am
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Illuminati

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Post Re: The Supplementary GMDX Weapon Topic
That's a good thing about the "Universal Scope" concept too - all have variable zoom (in GMDX). And yeah, v9.0 supports variable zoom on the binoculars too now. Still has the awful low detail low FOV texture overlay though.

Quote:
I think it would be a good middle ground to get away from the magicness of my previous suggestion (one scope mod which can attach to any weapon and shows the desired scope suitable for the weapons role). It will add slightly more complexity to the game but you could have 2 different types of scopes, and then allow the player to apply them to any weapon they wish. A simplified version to how Farcry 3 and 4 does it. So you would have Short enclosed reflex sight (not a Holosight), and a Medium range sight for longer engagements. Both do not have the capability to zoom in and out.

GEP gun/ Plasma rifle and Sniper rifle should still have custom sights that are fitted to the weapon already. As I think using a standard sights for these would look weird and out of place as these specific weapon applications are highly specialised. The Sniper Rifle sight can zoom in and out as the sight in the GMDX does already.


While I'd prefer sticking to the established concept just with improvements, the above does sound pretty good too, as long as they still remain permanent choices and you can't change/detach optics types once one is applied. Which again is asking a lot from players to accept :shrugs:

I'm still for the universal scope kit providing specialized scopes though. Currently it already does that with the GEP gun. I just don't want to see highly specialized optics for every single weapon. Two, maybe three specialized (say GEP, Plasma and Assault gun), the rest generic with minor aesthetic differences (different scope mounts, positioning etc). I don't see how that's disagreeable.

If it comes to it though and will just can't agree, I will say fuck it, make specialized scopes for each weapon, as long as they are all scopes and not holographic sights and the like.

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Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:05 am
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