Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

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Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod

Post by Cybernetic pig »

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Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote: I like Option One as it currently is, with the exception that instead of the Assault Rifle receiving the custom scope, it is instead the Sniper Rifle. This is because a Sniper Rifles scope is far more specialised than scopes you would use on Assault Rifles, Shotguns and Pistols. And would need to look different to show this.
Sniper rifle is exempt from all this shit ( 8) ) as it comes with scope by default and is not a weapon mod.

I still don't like the idea of taking away classic choice permanence for the scope, optics, suppressor and laser mod by allowing the player to take them off/put them back on/put them on another weapon instead. But I suppose it doesn't have to do great harm as all skills/augs/incremental weapon mods will still remain permanent. It'd also be a pain in the ass to handle considering the inventory system (e.g detaching a scope when inventory is full, what happens then?). Or maybe we should say fuck the player's very valid expectations and retain choice permanence regardless. No idea.

Maybe I was being too obsessive about staying true to the original concept considering this is to be an optional mod, but I don't like some of the downsides of concept 1 despite the upsides being very, very good.

Also you'd better not pull that overly-emotional shit again as soon as opinions get slightly heated. We're nearly at the point of no return: If one of us drops out, everyone is fucked. Me, you, fans anticipating it. We can't let this all be for nothing and indeed, we need each other for this to work. Lol imagine those high detail weapons with vanilla DX weapon systems and effects.
I also appreciate your very modest public apology/statement. Didn't expect you to go through with it considering how butthurt you got :P
And I'm sorry if I was being unreasonable. I don't think I was, but I could have unintentionally expressed myself in that way at some point.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod

Post by Jonas »

If you let the player swap around weapon mods at will, you should probably reduce the amount of mods found throughout the game. And then you should probably place some other reward of roughly equal value in those places instead.

Any character who sells you weapon mods will also be undercharging after the change, since weapon mods that can be reassigned at will are substantially more valuable than ones who cannot. I don't remember if those characters actually mention their prices in their voice-over though, in which case there's nothing you can really do about that.

Guess it won't fuck with the game balance too much - Deus Ex never had the most meticulously balanced economy anyway. But it's still worth considering.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote: I like Option One as it currently is, with the exception that instead of the Assault Rifle receiving the custom scope, it is instead the Sniper Rifle. This is because a Sniper Rifles scope is far more specialised than scopes you would use on Assault Rifles, Shotguns and Pistols. And would need to look different to show this.
Sniper rifle is exempt from all this shit ( 8) ) as it comes with scope by default and is not a weapon mod.
That is good, so Assault Rifle should just use attachable scopes like the other weapons. In which all would be appropriate for it.

Cybernetic pig wrote:I still don't like the idea of taking away classic choice permanence for the scope, optics, suppressor and laser mod by allowing the player to take them off/put them back on/put them on another weapon instead. But I suppose it doesn't have to do great harm as all skills/augs/incremental weapon mods will still remain permanent. It'd also be a pain in the ass to handle considering the inventory system (e.g detaching a scope when inventory is full, what happens then?). Or maybe we should say fuck the player's very valid expectations and retain choice permanence regardless. No idea.
It's not like attachments would realistically be fused to the weapon on the molecular level through the process of welding anyway, but the game did not have that functionality due to the pursuit of simplicity from a development standpoint before the game shipped. By allowing it, you let the player to play the game, how they want to play it on a deeper level than they have ever been able too before. And for the full inventory problem, you could just have the attachment drop to the ground, or notify the player that there is no room in their inventory to do such an action.

Cybernetic pig wrote:Also you'd better not pull that overly-emotional shit again as soon as opinions get slightly heated. We're nearly at the point of no return: If one of us drops out, everyone is fucked. Me, you, fans anticipating it. We can't let this all be for nothing and indeed, we need each other for this to work. Lol imagine those high detail weapons with vanilla DX weapon systems and effects.
Nah, I can't see that happening. I'm now more aware about what's at stake so don't think I'll be so frivolous again.

Cybernetic pig wrote:I also appreciate your very modest public apology/statement. Didn't expect you to go through with it considering how butthurt you got :P
And I'm sorry if I was being unreasonable. I don't think I was, but I could have unintentionally expressed myself in that way at some point.
Haha, yeah not my finest moment. You weren't being unreasonable at all, your best interests are for GMDX and I guess the pressure in trying to not only convey my ideas but to also battle criticisms and the feeling of loosing creative control got the better of me (It got to a point where I was angry enough to think I could do better on my own and avoid all of this). I will make sure that doesn't happen again. In the end, we all wan't the best for this mod. But I am glad that you are more open to new ideas though, I don't plan to deviate from the formula that made Deus Ex great at all, but there is definitely room for improvements to make it even better.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote: It's not like attachments would realistically be fused to the weapon on the molecular level through the process of welding anyway, but the game did not have that functionality due to the pursuit of simplicity from a development standpoint before the game shipped. By allowing it, you let the player to play the game, how they want to play it on a deeper level than they have ever been able too before.


Don't be so sure of that. Each and every classic RPG Immersive Sim (e.g Deus Ex, System Shock 2, Ultima Underworld, Arx Fatalis) is filled with build options/upgrades and each and every one of 'em are permanent/non-respec-able upgrade choices.

-Consequences are just as important as choices. Choices lack consequences in a variety of ways if you can just back out of 'em whenever you want. Same principle behind GMDX's optional hardcore mode.
-It's much easier to balance. e.g I get enough complaints about the laser mod as it is. Imagine if you can just stick it on any weapon at will.
And for the full inventory problem, you could just have the attachment drop to the ground, or notify the player that there is no room in their inventory to do such an action.


Yeah I know, I was was further highlighting there's a lot of consequences and workload as a result of concept 1.
Nah, I can't see that happening. I'm now more aware about what's at stake so don't think I'll be so frivolous again.

Haha, yeah not my finest moment. You weren't being unreasonable at all, your best interests are for GMDX and I guess the pressure in trying to not only convey my ideas but to also battle criticisms and the feeling of loosing creative control got the better of me (It got to a point where I was angry enough to think I could do better on my own and avoid all of this). I will make sure that doesn't happen again.
Very modest.

Unfortunately we still have the challenge of actually coming to an agreement or compromise. I'd definitely like to invite/encourage community input on what concept to go for. A part of the concern is getting invested in concept 1 but it never seeing the light of day. There ain't no animators 'round these parts. Advanced animation methods imported into DX aren't well documented as far as I am aware despite the HDTP team doing it all before, including converting skeletal to vertex (seriously, wtf HDTP team?).
And if we do find an animator, they'd have a fair bit of work set out for them including a bunch more anims added by concept 1 (aim down sights, aim down scope, return to idle stance from those states, detach optics/scope/laser/silencer, attach detach optics/scope/laser/silencer, all multiplied by the amount of weapons there are).
And more...

Although I guess we could skip those attach/detach anims by doing it from the inventory screen.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Jonas wrote:If you let the player swap around weapon mods at will, you should probably reduce the amount of mods found throughout the game. And then you should probably place some other reward of roughly equal value in those places instead.
Yeah, and this. There is nothing of value to place instead. Everything is already meticulously balanced.

I really don't like the negative consequences of concept 1, as appealing as the positive aspects sound.
Jonas wrote:Deus Ex never had the most meticulously balanced economy anyway. But it's still worth considering.
GMDX goes some way to rectifying that.
Any character who sells you weapon mods will also be undercharging after the change, since weapon mods that can be reassigned at will are substantially more valuable than ones who cannot. I don't remember if those characters actually mention their prices in their voice-over though, in which case there's nothing you can really do about that.
Fortunately there is only one NPC that sells weapon mods intended to be detachable: Kaplan and his scope mod. the rest are all clip mods, accuracy etc which I definitely wouldn't be happy with allowing the player to swap about.
Myself wrote:I really don't like the negative consequences of concept 1, as appealing as the positive aspects sound.
BUT I'm still willing to consider it. At the end of the day it's optional and independent of the current state of near design perfection GMDX is on ;) Still hopeful this optional mode can hit the spot too though, as everyone will flock to it instead of the normal mode given the choice because pretty new weapons.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

The first concept, and the iron sights, could work if used completely differently from other modern shooters. The iron sights should fill in most of the player's POV, along with sway as with other scopes. This would actually make the player want to use the iron sights only if they are able to shoot accurately - either at a standing target, a large target, or if they have large enough accuracy to justify accurately aiming. Modern shooters generally use iron sights without sway and while retaining some peripheral vision, which should not be the case when combined with Deus Ex's current shooting mechanics.
Again, I feel like aiming down iron sights should be mapped to the same button as the scope button - if you were to use another button, that'd make the control scheme using my pretty regular mouse (2 buttons + scroll wheel) kind of convoluted.
Sidenote: The assault gun should be a special case with sight and scope aiming. It should have different aiming methods for both regular shooting and the grenade launcher - one should be a regular iron sight, and the other should be a ladder sight. With the scope attached, it should have whatever scope you choose for the regular gun, and for the grenade launcher you should definitely use a projection sight. The way those work for grenade launchers is that you actually see a shadow where the grenade is supposed to land after shutting the eye that's looking down the scope - and the shadow actually scales based on the distance. Besides the fact that it's very cool, it also very useful instead of estimating your distance from the target.

Reattaching scopes and optics is detrimental, I think. While it's realistic, it makes weapon modding trivial - especially when the most important factor in Deus Ex's modding is whether you can actually land a hit with the damn thing, not to mention other balancing issues.

Aside from those insights, I'm down with every concept. They all pose different pros and cons, but all are an improvement on the current way things are right now.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Iron sights wouldn't need to reduce peripheral vision considerably as scopes don't (due to GMDX's better scope view). If iron sights function almost identical to scopes there would be no need to oppose it from the player's perspective. Doing so would be illogical as Deus Ex already has aiming down scopes that provide pinpoint accuracy but add sway. The only possible argument against it that comes to mind is that it devalues scopes, as iron sights come with each weapon by default, but it's not like that's much of a compelling argument. Scopes (barring the sniper rifle) currently don't add a great deal of value even with all the GMDX improvements. Shooting from the hip does the job just fine.

The way I intend to implement it (if concept 1 is chosen) is iron sights are damn near unusable at untrained, just as scopes are, because there's so much sway. It should be entirely optional and have minimal to no impact on game balance, if possible. The sway formula would be a copy-paste of the scope formula (likely with refinements to smooth it out), preferably modifying weapon rotation, fire offset and making the bullet go in the direction the weapon is rotated as opposed to swaying view rotation though, because that'd look silly.

Agreed on no detachable weapon mods. That should be a no-go.

again, counter-voice of reason though: going with the HDTP concept or concept 3 is far more sensible and viable, but I still think there's heaps of value in concept 1 and I'm happy to go with it as long as mods are not detachable despite the majority of players valid expectations to be able to experiment with scopes vs sights etc. Cuts out most of the immediate problems I have with it.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

Well, scopes use lenses to make every area valuable. Iron sights are... well, shit.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... rlinie.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_59GYpEVAu0U/T ... -sight.jpg
Keep in mind that you want to be as close as possible to the sights to be able to center the front part most accurately. Not to mention there's a big block of iron (the actual gun) in the way, obscuring your entire lower field of view.

Here's a tilted view of the M16 iron sights:
http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/85 ... 89ef7b.jpg
As you can see, the lower part is obscured, as are the sides. It's shit that you're only supposed to fall back upon in an emergency, and it should be sort-of-shit in-game.

The Deus Ex scopes do limit the field of view, but they should be NOTHING compared to how much the iron sights limit your view.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Iron sights are... well, shit.
But we don't want them to be that shit, or at least I wouldn't. Those examples really are awful. So much obstruction. Isn't there better examples?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_sigh ... Sight.jpeg
http://img-cdn.redwolfairsoft.com/uploa ... 7_06_L.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lcqOUaqfngg/maxresdefault.jpg
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

AFAIK the last image is an improper use of the AK sights - at least the AK47 uses a ladder sight, to my knowledge.

And I don't know, I think I want them to be shit even when you're trained with them. Even when they are working as intended, you want to have the incentive to upgrade to the scope whenever possible.
Plus, it's realistic. I know from experience with assault rifles and machine guns it's that way - the shotgun you've given is something I can't really comment on.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Shadowdancerxxl »

Personally I wouldn't mind both iron sights/optical sights and scopes in the game. But if only if you make sure that by default, meaning if you don't use the aformentioned weapon mods, the crosshair never locks on completely, not even on master level, leaving the player with a small miss chance. Well maybe with a laser sight or the targeting aug it could lock on. Maybe it's just me, but I always felt that it's retarded that I can go full rambo aka never look down a scope/ironsight and still hit everyone with a 0% miss chance on advanced/master. This would not only add more value to the aformentioned items/mods, but also make the game more realistic and challenging. But staying a bit more on topic I'm down with either of your concepts, because with the current aiming system I really don't think one needs a scope or an ironsight to aim properly, so maybe pick the one with more eyecandy.
http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx A mod that improves Deus Ex's gameplay, maps, visuals, audio etc. whilst staying loyal to its original design? Yes my friend, you may touch yourself with the light now.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:The way I intend to implement it (if concept 1 is chosen) is iron sights are damn near unusable at untrained, just as scopes are, because there's so much sway. It should be entirely optional and have minimal to no impact on game balance, if possible. The sway formula would be a copy-paste of the scope formula (likely with refinements to smooth it out), preferably modifying weapon rotation, fire offset and making the bullet go in the direction the weapon is rotated as opposed to swaying view rotation though, because that'd look silly.
I can't see how iron sights should be so unusable when untrained. When you can look down an untrained weapon with a scope, there is movement that makes shooting difficult but not unusable. Those same movements should affect the player looking down iron sights to the same extent.
Cybernetic pig wrote:Agreed on no detachable weapon mods. That should be a no-go.

again, counter-voice of reason though: going with the HDTP concept or concept 3 is far more sensible and viable, but I still think there's heaps of value in concept 1 and I'm happy to go with it as long as mods are not detachable despite the majority of players valid expectations to be able to experiment with scopes vs sights etc. Cuts out most of the immediate problems I have with it.
While detachable scopes would offer the player the most freedom with weapon customisation, I disagree that weapon mods should not be detachable. By restricting detachment, we are telling players how to play the game, even if it deviates from the vanilla DX experience slightly. There must be a good description outlining the strengths and weaknesses of this scope so that the player is informed and players should not be completely restricted by their choice, as I would like players to experiment with what works best for them. A part of that is the ability to attach and detach scopes and sights at their discretion.

One drawback not allowing scope detachment would be when a player has found their first scope, and the immediately attach it to their Assault Rifle. And then down the track they find another one that is better suited for it. What can they do?
  • Will they be stuck with their first choice? (Restrictive, this will also make players wait for their favorite scope instead of using the first one on subsequent play throughs. This will also force players to pick up dropped weapons to attach another scope too, thus potentially losing all mods they attached onto the weapon they dropped if they like the new scope better)
  • Can they replace the attached scope with the new scope? (Added player freedom, they aren't locked in to one scope, they can upgrade to better scope)
  • Will the replaced scope just disappear? (Simplest, CP happifier:P)
  • Will the replaced scope be returned to the inventory, taking the inventory slot of the scope that replaced it? (Detachable, this allows for that scope to then be used on another weapon)
  • What if player doesn't like it and wants the first one back?

Further questions
  • What if the player doesn't like the first scope the attached after they found it?
  • What if the player wanted to get iron sights back?

If detachment functionality by any means is implemented
Unwanted scopes are discarded at the discretion of the player like every other item not required by them.
Last edited by Mortecha on Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

I still argue in favor of my idea - have only 1 scope mod, that works differently for different guns. It'll always be an improvement, and while it won't be consistent across all guns (unless they all use generic parts), it'll always reinforce the playstyle the player chooses. So while you won't be able to have magnification optics on your shotgun, you won't have to suffer because you've chose to use a holo-scope on your pretty long range crossbow because it's the only thing you had at the time. Makes things simpler and doesn't punish you for experimentation as it ALWAYS acts as an improvement.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Made in China wrote:I still argue in favor of my idea - have only 1 scope mod, that works differently for different guns. It'll always be an improvement, and while it won't be consistent across all guns (unless they all use generic parts), it'll always reinforce the playstyle the player chooses. So while you won't be able to have magnification optics on your shotgun, you won't have to suffer because you've chose to use a holo-scope on your pretty long range crossbow because it's the only thing you had at the time. Makes things simpler and doesn't punish you for experimentation as it ALWAYS acts as an improvement.
If I recall, this was my initial concept. it's simple but CP didn't like the magicness of all scopes contained in one box. I agree with those sentiments now when a much richer experience can be offered with more work on this concept.
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