Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

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Jonas
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Jonas »

From my understanding, the reason shotguns don't typically get outfitted with scopes is that the whole point of shotguns is you don't need precise aim, because the birdshot or buckshot goes out in a cone. Shotguns have a higher effective range than you'd think because they fire a bunch of projectiles. If you only have one projectile, you need to make sure it goes exactly where you want it to, and a scope is good for that. If you have 20 balls all going in slightly different directions, you're counting on statistics rather than precision. It's like shooting at planes with flack-guns, you don't actually aim for the plane you just aim for the area it's roughly gonna be when your giant cloud of shrapnel reaches it :P

I am just a mild gun enthustiast as well though, so I could be misunderstanding something.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Made in China wrote:40mm grenade launchers need to be actively pushed away from your body as their intense recoil can dislocate your shoulder.
I've heard this about shotgun shoulder dislocation too. Maybe my source was wrong though. Never fired one myself unfortunately.

@Jonas: good points.
Made In China wrote:Isn't taking optics away from the crossbow makes long and mid-range non-lethal builds less viable? That and rubber bullets (which are pretty scarce in comparison, and are close range) are the only way to non lethally take out an enemy from a distance.
Also a good point. Crossbow scope should definitely stay.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Shotguns are often scoped when you want to use buckshot or slugs. Buckshot is fewer larger balls and fires with a much narrower cone than that of birdshot where scopes would be useless.

Slugs are single large projectile that pack alot of punch.

The sniper rifles scope should be fixed and not be able to be detached, otherwise this will lead to players putting that scope on pistols and such lol. Plus those scopes are specialised for sniping.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote: The sniper rifles scope should be fixed and not be able to be detached, otherwise this will lead to players putting that scope on pistols and such lol. Plus those scopes are specialised for sniping.
True.

I sure hope your sniper in its finished state is beautiful. I really dislike HDTP's and I don't fully know why. There's nothing I find recognizably wrong with it, it's good craft, but I just don't like its aesthetics.
Shadowdancerxxl wrote:Personally I wouldn't mind both iron sights/optical sights and scopes in the game. But if only if you make sure that by default, meaning if you don't use the aformentioned weapon mods, the crosshair never locks on completely, not even on master level, leaving the player with a small miss chance. Well maybe with a laser sight or the targeting aug it could lock on. Maybe it's just me, but I always felt that it's retarded that I can go full rambo aka never look down a scope/ironsight and still hit everyone with a 0% miss chance on advanced/master. This would not only add more value to the aformentioned items/mods, but also make the game more realistic and challenging.
Maybe on that insane difficulty mode that I should make just for you ;)

I'd likely play it too as hardcore mode isn't exactly "hardcore" enough. At least not if you love '90s games, but it is perfect for most that want a real challenge without pulling any hairs out.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Shadowdancerxxl »

Cybernetic pig wrote: Maybe on that insane difficulty mode that I should make just for you ;)

I'd likely play it too as hardcore mode isn't exactly "hardcore" enough. At least not if you love '90s games, but it is perfect for most that want a real challenge without pulling any hairs out.
Aha 8-)

To be honest, I'm actually quite satisfied with the hardcore mode you made. Yeah it's not really that hard, but it's difficult enough for most people. I'm actually impressed how you managed to make it more challenging than the original "realistic" difficulty and somehow still managed to remove cheap deaths completely. Well, at least in my 20 playthroughs of your hardcore mode the few deaths I had never really felt cheap and I could really only blame myself. Although I still think aiming is a bit too easy in Deus Ex in general, but I agree with what you said that it's reasonably challenging.


And now to go a bit off topic here and with off topic I mean something non-scope-ish xd Mortecha, what are your plans with the baton model wise? More specifically are you planning to make it less deadly looking? xd Not trying to nitpick on DX here, but I have an ESP baton and I wouldn't really use the word "non-lethal" to describe it xd Seriously though, If I'd smack someone on the head with it, it'd most certainly be fatal. At least the sequel did it somewhat right. Whatever flaws it had at least the baton in that game was the police one that's mostly rubber. Still not perfect, but definitely better than the one in this game.
http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx A mod that improves Deus Ex's gameplay, maps, visuals, audio etc. whilst staying loyal to its original design? Yes my friend, you may touch yourself with the light now.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Bogie »

I always thought that the (HDTP) sniper rifle without the scope looked like an assault rifle. Image
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Bogie wrote:I always thought that the (HDTP) sniper rifle without the scope looked like an assault rifle. Image
I've always thought the same, the suppressor connected to the muzzle break is also rather ridiculous too.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by DevAnj »

I'm surprised I've never noticed that in all the playthroughs I've done with HDTP. And now that I have, I can't unsee it. Thanks a bunch! :p
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

Sorry for bringing up the scopes again after it went quiet for a few days, but it just now sunk in that toggleable scopes + grid based inventory system was already implemented in another game - Resident Evil 4. The scope/optics always stays in your inventory taking up space, but it can be coupled with a certain gun on the fly. As all of you already know, RE4 is pretty well received, and this part of it received little to no criticism.

That being said, the Deus Ex inventory system isn't really built up for that. Not sure how much work it'd take to implement, or how it would impact inventory management and item balancing. But the concept is already there, if wanting to implement toggleable sights.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Made in China wrote:Sorry for bringing up the scopes again after it went quiet for a few days, but it just now sunk in that toggleable scopes + grid based inventory system was already implemented in another game - Resident Evil 4. The scope/optics always stays in your inventory taking up space, but it can be coupled with a certain gun on the fly. As all of you already know, RE4 is pretty well received, and this part of it received little to no criticism.

That being said, the Deus Ex inventory system isn't really built up for that. Not sure how much work it'd take to implement, or how it would impact inventory management and item balancing. But the concept is already there, if wanting to implement toggleable sights.
Don't be sorry at all, I was just about to bring up another point that would have made this forum erupt in discussion again. This is a good point, and presents one major problem. For every weapon there will be a given number of attachments, if all of their attachments still consume inventory space, then your inventory will be full of scopes, laser sights and suppressors, giving the player no room for anything else.

The fact that a game is well received, generally doesn't mean that game play mechanics it utilises is universally beneficial for other games. Developers have different views and generate different levels of abstraction based on time and budgets, as well as effectiveness. These generate a different experience where other titles mechanics may no longer be a good fit.



Now I have had afew thoughts in the back of my mind about scope representation, and would like something similar to how HR does it, where an attached component becomes visible on the weapon thumbnail, so the thumbnail changes once an attachment has been attached. This means that there will be;

|Scope | Laser | Supressor
1 | 0 | 0 | 0
2 | 0 | 0 | 1
3 | 0 | 1 | 0
4 | 0 | 1 | 1
5 | 1 | 0 | 0
6 | 1 | 0 | 1
7 | 1 | 1 | 0
8 | 1 | 1 | 1

8 different thumbnails per weapon. Which of course, would match the view and art style of all vanilla weapons and objects inventory thumbnails to not look out of place.

Another problem is 3rd person view versions of the weapon should also reflect what attachments it has equipt. This is beneficial for two reasons, the first is that it's more immersive, as WYSWIG (with the exception of all weapon mods that have no visible characteristics, such as the recoil dampeners etc). Secondly, when you become imprisoned and have all your weapons removed, it is difficult to identify the one that you have been carrying throughout the game, and have to individually check each one's stats before equipping the desired on, then grabbing the ammo from the rest.

It would actually be nice to have checks in place, so that when you accidentally interact with say the captured assault rifle while you have one already equipped, that the captured assault rifle replaces it, this would be abit more complex if the assault rifle is already in the hands of the player though (automatic put away and replace weapon?). This had caught me before on my first or second play through to much disappointment and frustration.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote:RE4
Yeah, the RE4 method would not translate too well here. Deus Ex (especially w/GMDX) has a notably deeper modding system and your inventory would be filled to the brim with mods. Even if it were for scopes only that'd still be like up to four scope mods you have to permanently carry around, making scopes not worth the hassle. ...Although I'm forgetting in GMDX weapon mods stack, nonetheless scopes permanently taking up even one slot in your inventory is still problematic.

I was thinking a couple days back we should go for one of two methods:

1. Detaching a scope places the scope mod back in your inventory, leaving you free to attach it to even another gun if you want. If your inventory is full you cannot detach until you make space.
2. Once a scope mod is attached to a gun it is a permanent modification. You can still take the scope itself off/put it back on again at any time, but taking it off won't cause it to materialize in your inventory. So basically the scope mod can only be applied once but you permanently gain the ability to switch between scope/sights for the weapon it is applied to. This (sort of) falls in line with everything else being a permanent mod and slightly lessens the inconsistency factor.

Both are good imo, and both have unrealistic aspects. Well, #1 would only be unrealistic if scopes are not generic.
I am strongly in favor of #2 currently.
8 different thumbnails per weapon. Which of course, would match the view and art style of all vanilla weapons and objects inventory thumbnails to not look out of place.
Cool, yeah. I don't see why not. Whoever makes the textures are going to have to be really on-point with the art style though.
Another problem is 3rd person view versions of the weapon should also reflect what attachments it has equipt. This is beneficial for two reasons, the first is that it's more immersive, as WYSWIG (with the exception of all weapon mods that have no visible characteristics, such as the recoil dampeners etc). Secondly, when you become imprisoned and have all your weapons removed, it is difficult to identify the one that you have been carrying throughout the game, and have to individually check each one's stats before equipping the desired on, then grabbing the ammo from the rest.

It would actually be nice to have checks in place, so that when you accidentally interact with say the captured assault rifle while you have one already equipped, that the captured assault rifle replaces it, this would be abit more complex if the assault rifle is already in the hands of the player though (automatic put away and replace weapon?). This had caught me before on my first or second play through to much disappointment and frustration.
Both these things already exist, if I'm understanding you properly:

1. 3rd person models in HDTP display what weapon mods are equipped on the weapon.
2. Frobbing a modded weapon while you have another weapon of the same class in your hand will transfer the mods of the frobbed weapon onto the gun in your hand.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote: I was thinking a couple days back we should go for one of two methods:

1. Detaching a scope places the scope mod back in your inventory, leaving you free to attach it to even another gun if you want. If your inventory is full you cannot detach until you make space.
2. Once a scope mod is attached to a gun it is a permanent modification. You can still take the scope itself off/put it back on again at any time, but taking it off won't cause it to materialize in your inventory. So basically the scope mod can only be applied once but you permanently gain the ability to switch between scope/sights for the weapon it is applied to. This (sort of) falls in line with everything else being a permanent mod and slightly lessens the inconsistency factor.
I am in favor of option 1, purely because it's simpler. You take a scope off and the user would expect it appear in the inventory (if there's enough space), were they can then choose to either discard it if they have no need for it or attach it to another weapon. This would provide another factor in strategic decisions players make about their loadouts and how they want to use each weapon, as well as evolving their play style at their choosing as they gain more effective Scopes.

Option 2 would confuse the player initially as they would expect the scope to appear in the inventory after they remove it, but it does not.

Some key questions though:
How would they then figure out where the scope went after they detach it?
Will there be a prompt?
Will there be a dropdown menu item when you say right click on a weapon or a collection of scope images in the info section to then re-attach any given Scope that has previously been attached?

To me it seems too magical as you would have a collection of scopes inside a invisible and weightless bag of holding attached to the weapon. This option also removes the ability for the player to be able to evolve their play style as they gain access to more effective scopes, as they would have spent the opportunity to be able to improve their other weapons because the scope was bound to a given weapon. Scopes are inherently detachable, except for special cases for specialist weapons where scopes are fixed. This also removes the opportunity to impart choices upon the player regarding what scopes they choose are important to have, what scopes they like to use and on what weapons they chose would fit the scope too and at what time they choose to use it.

This reminds me, we have yet to talk about how the user interacts with the weapons in the inventory to detach them.
Cybernetic pig wrote:
8 different thumbnails per weapon. Which of course, would match the view and art style of all vanilla weapons and objects inventory thumbnails to not look out of place.
Cool, yeah. I don't see why not. Whoever makes the textures are going to have to be really on-point with the art style though.

The aesthetic would have to be spot-on indeed. Like, exactly the same so that at a glance it looks like a vanilla inventory screen, but with new shiny (grungy/cyberpunky) weapons.


Cybernetic pig wrote:Both these things already exist, if I'm understanding you properly:

1. 3rd person models in HDTP display what weapon mods are equipped on the weapon.
2. Frobbing a modded weapon while you have another weapon of the same class in your hand will transfer the mods of the frobbed weapon onto the gun in your hand.
This is awesome indeed. Does this also apply to non-visible mods too? So your current weapon acts as a hypothetical mod hoover?

Edit: Grammar
Last edited by Mortecha on Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Salk »

Mortecha wrote:I am in favor of option 1, purely because it's simpler. You take a scope off and the user would expect it appear in the inventory (if there's enough space), were they can then choose to either discard it if they have no need for it or attach it to another weapon. This would provide another factor in strategic decisions players make about their loadouts and how they want to use each weapon, as well as evolving their play style at their choosing as they gain more effective Scopes.

Option 2 would confuse the player initially as they would expect the scope to appear in the inventory after they remove it, but it does not.
I agree completely with Mortecha here.

Option 1 is the way to go in this case.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by DevAnj »

Mortecha wrote:
This is awesome indeed. Does this also apply to non-visible mods too? So your current weapon acts as a hypothetical mod hoover?
It does. It's vanilla Deus Ex mod behavior, so it doesn't require any special coding to implement either.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Some key questions though:
How would they then figure out where the scope went after they detach it?
Will there be a prompt?
Will there be a dropdown menu item when you say right click on a weapon or a collection of scope images in the info section to then re-attach any given Scope that has previously been attached?
I was thinking two simple buttons in the weapon info window like so:

[Iron Sights] [Scope]

OR one toggle button:

[Attach/Detach Scope]

Immediately after clicking the button, the other button will highlight or the toggle button text will change, making it apparent they can put the scope back on again immediately if desired, and it's always an option.

If going with scope concept 1 it'd just be a single [detach scope] button.

Problem with scope concept 1 is again it goes against Deus Ex's choice permanence principle, is open to abuse (take scope off, stick it on GEP gun, do some IW style rocket guidance then put it back on original gun), and is not really any more realistic than scope concept 2 as we're not going with generic scopes.
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