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MWM Feature List 
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UNATCO

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:24 am
Posts: 282
Location: Sweden
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
Okay, it feels like we are running in circles here.

I am not sure I understand how CP would want to store the detachable scope? Not back to the inventory, that much I understand... How would it work then?


Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:56 am
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Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2283
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
Salk wrote:
Okay, it feels like we are running in circles here.

I am not sure I understand how CP would want to store the detachable scope? Not back to the inventory, that much I understand... How would it work then?


Magic pouch. Same as ammo, nanokey, credits...

It'd be no less realistic than taking a hi-tech scope of the plasma rifle and it magically turning into a standard telescopic scope when put on the pistol instead. It'd probably be more realistic, even, as we already accept the magic pouch concept.

Scopes re-materializing ask that:

-Players accept detached scopes can morph into other types of scopes, depending on the weapon it is applied to (e.g take off plasma, put it on pistol instead).
-Players accept they can re-materialize scopes, but not any other type of mod.
-That we go against the choice permanence principle.

The magic pouch alternative doesn't have any of these issues, it just means we can't switch scopes between weapons (not exactly a big deal - you can't do it with any other mod type, and you can't do it at all vanilla), and it asks that the player accept the magic pouch concept (already does, so moot point).

It's bad enough we've not gone with generic scopes, but I'm willing to compromise there.

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Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:47 am, edited 3 times in total.

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:03 am
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MJ12

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 453
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
Since it's a question of balance, it can easily be solved via experimentation instead of deliberation, which is what we've done so far.
All you need to do is create placeholder scope items which correlate with scope overlays and let players test this build. The model differences can come once you've decided on which solution to take.

If there aren't any issues with the scope/sight items that can appear in your inventory, go with option 1. Otherwise, go with option 2 as it already fits the existing Deus Ex formula.


Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:18 am
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Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2283
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
It's no longer a question of balance at all. If going with scope detachment concept 1, We can solve the GEP balancing issue via the introduction of the unique mods idea or by just disabling the guidance system outright.

The problem is consistency, betraying the choice permanence principle, and even realism. Both ideas are unrealistic, but the re-materializing thing is even more so for the reasons listed in my previous post.
And just for the record, the idea of enabling the player to take off scopes doesn't betray the choice permanence principle by itself (it's the same as simply opting to not use an aug you've installed, for example), it only betrays it if you can then put the scope on another weapon instead.

If Mortecha is worried about the magic pouch not allowing you to experiment with optics types, you need not worry. As I said, there will be an option for: [Iron sights][Scope][Holographic Sights], each button being accessible if you have attached both a sights mod kit and a scope mod kit to that particular weapon.

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Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:24 am
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MJ12

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 453
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
I didn't mean balance as in in-game balance, but in balance of concepts and how much further to take each one.

Again, playtesting will solve it pretty easily - let a select group of players play with preliminary concept 1, see if and how it breaks or betrays Deus Ex, and if it does - go with concept 2. It's far easier than arguing in favor of any concept as both raise pretty valid concerns, while all that matters is how it actually functions in-game, what it makes the player feel and how it impacts the gameplay. All are easily tested - you just need to create a test build instead of a pre-release build.


Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:38 am
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Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2283
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
It's a waste of time. Scope Detachment Concept 2 is more suitable and should be chosen. This is something I won't budge on unless a truly solid argument for Scope Detachment Concept 1 is made, or someone comes up with something that is better.

Since he brought up Far Cry 3/4, he accepts there that optics cannot be taken off of one gun and put on another. Nope, it has the alternative. You buy an optics attachment and it is for that weapon only, yet permanently interchangeable with the other optics types available for that weapon. Basically what I want for Deus Ex as it is the most suitable option given the existing design.

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Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:39 am
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MJ12

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 453
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
Not to be a drag, but I've recently played MGSV - there, you could transfer optics and scopes between weapons in the same weapon classes as long as they have a compatible body - which is solved by universal Picatinny rails here.
This is a lot of fun, but again we have to check compatibility with Deus Ex's design here. I think that concept 2 is a better fit as well, but I think that it's worth trying out concept 1 if it's a cause of major strife - which it seems it is. Since we're using placeholders and simple overlays I don't think it'll be a large waste of time, but you're the coder so you know best.


Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:06 am
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Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2283
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
I think it's a waste of time because I already see the results of each clearly in my head from all angles (I hope) and the second method is undoubtedly more suitable by a large margin.

MGSV doesn't have the clearly defined, sacred choice permanence principle to contend with, and its optics are undoubtedly generic as opposed to ranging from conventional telescopic scopes to experimental plasma rifle-unique hi-tech scopes.

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Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:19 am
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UNATCO

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:17 am
Posts: 118
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
The time for discussion is over. I don't have time anymore to continue any discussion regarding how the implementation behind the weapons or any future ideas changing the status quo. I'll only be able to redesign the weapons under the my current design mandate with no care for the semantics of their implementation. I will also only be able to provide you the 3d models, and do no work regarding their integration into the engine or mod itself. that I will leave upto you. The requirements of my business have expanded greatly so will be unable to contribute more time than I can contribute to the redesigns. Even a mod on my own would have failed, so working with GMDX is the best bet. Kinda sucks being a CEO sometimes lol.


Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:56 am
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MJ12

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 453
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
Cybernetic pig wrote:
I think it's a waste of time because I already see the results of each clearly in my head from all angles (I hope) and the second method is undoubtedly more suitable by a large margin.

MGSV doesn't have the clearly defined, sacred choice permanence principle to contend with, and its optics are undoubtedly generic as opposed to ranging from conventional telescopic scopes to experimental plasma rifle-unique hi-tech scopes.

Again, I feel the same way you do about concept 1 vs. concept 2 - but experimentation seems like the most efficient way to solve this discussion. As you've said, it seems set and clear in one's mind - but once implemented it can cause unintended side effects. Once you have some player feedback you can settle on something concrete that's guaranteed to work.

On the topic of MGSV's design, the scopes are specialized - some are ACOG, some are red dot, some have constant magnification (booster sights), some have variable zoom and some have rangefinders. Once you've customized your rifle it's set once you go on a mission, so there is some sort of permanence there - not to the degree of Deus Ex, and without Deus Ex's inventory to deal with, but its design has some similarities and is worth checking out if only for settling this debate.


Last edited by Made in China on Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:56 am
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UNATCO

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:17 am
Posts: 118
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
The time for discussion is over. I don't have time anymore to continue any discussion regarding how the implementation behind the weapons or any future ideas changing the status quo. I'll only be able to redesign the weapons under the my current design mandate with no care for the semantics of their implementation. I will also only be able to provide you the 3d models, and do no work regarding their integration into the engine or mod itself. that I will leave upto you. As of tonight the requirements of my business have expanded greatly so will be unable to contribute more time than I can contribute to the redesigns. Even a mod on my own would have failed, so working with GMDX is the best bet. Kinda sucks being a CEO sometimes lol.


Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:57 am
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UNATCO

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:24 am
Posts: 282
Location: Sweden
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
Magic pouch it is then... :D


Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:01 pm
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UNATCO

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:17 am
Posts: 118
Post Re: GMDX MWM Post Discussion Feature List
Salk wrote:
Magic pouch it is then... :D


Nope there will be no magic pouches XD Now that I have removed the biggest obstacle in the way of seeing my ideas come to fruition, we can now pursue a more logical way of doing things.


Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:52 am
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Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2283
Post Re: MWM Feature List
"more logical"

Snort. From magic pouches, a pre-existing concept, to magic morphing scopes that disregards the original design in more than one way. Such logic!
Anyway, I won't "waste your time" and will no longer get in the way of your pursuit to do whatever the hell you want just because you think the idea is cool, without actually analyzing the pre-existing systems and design.

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Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:42 am
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UNATCO

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:17 am
Posts: 118
Post Re: MWM Feature List
Cybernetic pig wrote:
"more logical"

Snort. From magic pouches, a pre-existing concept, to magic morphing scopes that disregards the original design in more than one way. Such logic!
Anyway, I won't "waste your time" and will no longer get in the way of your pursuit to do whatever the hell you want just because you think the idea is cool, without actually analyzing the pre-existing systems and design.


Ask yourself this, was this post really necessary? I would advise not making yourself look any more childish than you already have and walking away feeling slightly butt-hurt to where you can get over it. In the mean time I'll be "doing whatever the hell I want just because I think the idea is cool".


Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:31 am
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