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Jonas
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Post by Jonas »

Well think about how that situation would look in real life.

A group of terrorists have taken hostages and fortified themselves in a subway station with a royal tonne of TNT. What could possibly be the reason for the TNT? To deter a direct attack of course.

A UNATCO agent goes in and the TNT blows up. Logical conclusion? The agent made a bad move.

So even if you didn't actually exploderate the TNT yourself, you were the one who spurred the terrorists to do it. And you let it happen.

So load and try again :P
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Post by justanotherfan »

That mission often gets me since there's an element of randomness depending on how the AI reacts. They can shoot the TNT as soon as they see me, run through the lasers after the EMP has disabled them and trigger an explosion (ISTR that happening), or they can shoot the hostages instead of me. It's realistic, but annoying when you're going for a perfect run through for a certain conversation and haven't been saving progress. I just ignored the failure there and continued on to the jet which failed strangely.

I'll look into the cheats again. IIRC there's a notarget cheat that'll help when making fast runs through on missions like that.

I'll have to play through again later. I'm about to reformat, so it might be a few days ;-)
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Post by EER »

The fastest way to pass that mission is to blow the TNT yourself, but that wouldn't be considered perfect I guess ;)

I usually crawl through the airducts and shoot everone from above, by the time they notice me I move to another vantage point and shoot from there. The only times that went wrong was if the guy with the flamethrower got too close and actually fired at me.
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Post by Jonas »

justanotherfan wrote:run through the lasers after the EMP has disabled them and trigger an explosion (ISTR that happening)
In that case, they must've done it after the lasers went back to normal. I believe EMP only messes with the lasers temporarily, so they flicker and malfunction for a while.

My favourite way to deal with that situation is by applying liberal amounts of gas grenades. That causes everybody to just stop and rub their eyes, during which period you can take them out with one 10mm round to the head each. Just take the time to aim, the gas effect lasts long enough.
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Post by DDL »

Those lasers are set to TT_Playerproximity, so anyone other than you should be able to run through them with impunity. I've certainly never noticed anyone else setting them off..
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Post by s1gnal »

I was just about to post a question, which already seems answered in this post. I'll just post the question here, to be certain if I understand correctly. It is realy impossible to remain working for UNATCO? Because I indeed checked the "evidence", went back to Paul, in which was said we would go our seperate ways. I emediatly went to the metrostation, but alas I still couldn't enter it in order to move to Battary Park. So I used the "ghost" command, in order to pass through the closed station's gate anyway. Gunter stands there waiting for you in Battery Park, but appears as an enemy. However, no lines are spoken. Probably because I didn't send the signal which remained the plot untriggered. I ghosted out of the Gunter/Unatco "surroundment" to meet jock. He won't leave untill he knows about Paul's condition... *sigh*. I'd love to remain with UNATCO. To bad they didn't code that into the game.
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Post by Jonas »

It wouldn't have been so much a question as coding it into the game as a question of spending another year implementing a completely different storyline parallel to the current one. To say it nicely, it would've been non-trivial ;)
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Post by chris the cynic »

Jonas wrote:It wouldn't have been so much a question as coding it into the game as a question of spending another year implementing a completely different storyline parallel to the current one.
I'm not sure that's true Jonas. I'm reminded of a game called Independence War, a space combat simulator. At one point you had a choice and if you did one thing the game was over after the next mission, if you did another thing the game continued for several more missions and (depending on the branches you took) you might play an almost identical version of that mission anyway.

When you have multiple endings they don't all need to be satisfying. Staying with UNATCO could be as simple as going to Hong Kong and killing Tong. Then have a cut scene with JC getting a medal and news of international victories over the terrorists. (Like the retaking of Vandenberg and the Paris catacombs.)

All you'd need for that would be a modified Hong Kong mission, it might not even need to be modified that much, UNACTO could authorize you to work for Tong in order to get close to him and then it would be exactly the same until you shoot him in the head. (Though that isn't optimal and Jock would be a problem.) The game could end either right there or after you got back to safety.

My point is that though it would have been non-trivial the UNATCO part need not have been as long as the original and might be built almost completely on borrowed material. In fact in a way staying with UNATCO shouldn't give you as much content because it would be a choice not to pursue the truth, it makes no sense to reward the player with the truth if they chose not to pursue it.

-

Even if it were to go on for as long I don't see why it would be completely different, probable missions, after the Tong one, would be taking out Silhouette, X-51, and Dowd as well as retrieving the schematics from the Ocean Lab (though these are more MJ12 than UNATCO.) They obviously wouldn't be the same, for all I know that would take a year to make the right modifications, but I don't see why it would be completely different.
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Post by Jonas »

Well you're right about that, but in my own humble and extremely subjective opinion, that would be extremely bad game design. It'd reduce Deus Ex to a choose-your-own-adventure book where you are faced with options along the way that basically result in a delayed game-over. What if you choose to stay with UNATCO and then overwrite your only save-game? The next mission, the game ends, and you're forced to start over or miss out on 75% of the game you've paid $50 for. I would find that frustrating. Deus Ex already has one forced failure with Gunther, and Warren Spector was very unhappy with it, for obvious reasons. The game does not need another dead end :P

But that's just my (and quite likely Warren's) opinion.
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Post by that guy »

woah I didn't know chris the cynic posted here :O :O :O
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Post by Jonas »

Of course he does, Chris has too many words for one forum ;)
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Post by chris the cynic »

Jonas wrote:Well you're right about that, but in my own humble and extremely subjective opinion, that would be extremely bad game design. It'd reduce Deus Ex to a choose-your-own-adventure book where you are faced with options along the way that basically result in a delayed game-over. What if you choose to stay with UNATCO and then overwrite your only save-game? The next mission, the game ends, and you're forced to start over or miss out on 75% of the game you've paid $50 for. I would find that frustrating.
That is a rather annoying possible situation. (A similar situation is prevented in Independence War because of it's save structure.) One way would be to have an automatic save at JC's last chance to turn back, but of course that could be deleted.

A second possibility would be to have it so that JC could join the resistance in Hong Kong and thus continue the game one normally would.

The only reason that I brought up the possibility in the first place is that if you were given a choice it would be between individuality, self-determination and the truth (with the resistance) or being a non-self-determined part of a global system that actively tries to hide the truth (in UNATCO.) Even if you don't believe that UNATCO is part of a conspiracy you know at least that much (thank you UNATCO handbook.)

Taking that into account it seems to me like the player should be rewarded for choosing UNATCO by getting what they were after. So for the hypothetical player that took the hypothetical UNATCO branch they should get a very different experience. They chose not to go after individuality so what they do as an individual should not be all that important. They chose not to seek the truth so what they do should not reveal the truth. They chose to be an ignorant (low clearance) part of a larger system so it should be the system that appears to make a difference, not the player.

-

I understand what you're saying, and I agree it would be annoying, though it need not be a delayed game over (if they'd take you in after shooting Lebadev they'd take you in after you failed to send the signal and UNATCO flew you to Hong Kong,) the game wouldn't have to end until you'd pulled the trigger and killed Tong.

My point was that maybe every decision shouldn't be rewarded equally, if you were to decide to stay as a low clearance UNATCO agent instead of becoming the savior of the resistance you would have choosen not to be the kind of person that makes a difference, such a choice could have been respected and respecting it would have allowed you to stay with UNATCO without having a huge hassle.
Deus Ex already has one forced failure with Gunther, and Warren Spector was very unhappy with it, for obvious reasons.
I never understood that really. I just don't see why that was there. From a story standpoint if they let you get to the helicopter you'd fly away, Daedalus would tell you you needed to get Paul's datavault image, since Paul was already captured you'd fly to UNATCO headquarters and fight your way in.

So what would have to change? I could be wrong but it seems to me that all that would need to be done is:
1 Make it so that reaching the helicopter opens the appropriate UNATCO Island map with Jock landing at the helipad and being Jock-like.
2 Change lines that said, "You escaped," into, "You broke in," and there weren't that many of those anyway.
3 Have a way to get into the facility, so give the lobby trooper a key.
4 Have a way into the lab, so have it hacked the same way the other retinal scanner is.

At first I thought they had it that way because they wanted to make sure you didn't skip the MJ12 lab, but then I realized that the fact you need something from Paul meant you would have to go there no matter what.
But that's just my (and quite likely Warren's) opinion.
And I'm not saying it's a bad opinion, I'm just saying that there were more ways to handle a stay-with-UNATCO choice than making a completely new storyline. It is quite possible that the reason none of those ways were used is because Warren shares your opinion.
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Post by Jonas »

chris the cynic wrote:They chose not to go after individuality so what they do as an individual should not be all that important. They chose not to seek the truth so what they do should not reveal the truth. They chose to be an ignorant (low clearance) part of a larger system so it should be the system that appears to make a difference, not the player.
What if they chose to stay with MJ12 in the hopes of becoming Bob's right-hand man and becoming the ruler of their own continent? I certainly wouldn't stay with UNATCO to NOT be special. I would do so to be special in an altogether different way. Allowing me to make that choice without fulfilling my expectations of playing as the antagonist would've been beyond disappointing.
I just don't see why that was there. From a story standpoint if they let you get to the helicopter you'd fly away, Daedalus would tell you you needed to get Paul's datavault image, since Paul was already captured you'd fly to UNATCO headquarters and fight your way in.
That's actually a pretty great solution. They totally should've done that.
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Post by chris the cynic »

Jonas wrote:
chris the cynic wrote:They chose not to go after individuality so what they do as an individual should not be all that important. They chose not to seek the truth so what they do should not reveal the truth. They chose to be an ignorant (low clearance) part of a larger system so it should be the system that appears to make a difference, not the player.
What if they chose to stay with MJ12 in the hopes of becoming Bob's right-hand man and becoming the ruler of their own continent? I certainly wouldn't stay with UNATCO to NOT be special. I would do so to be special in an altogether different way. Allowing me to make that choice without fulfilling my expectations of playing as the antagonist would've been beyond disappointing.
Yeah, that had occured to me, and in that case it would be a problem.

The rest of this is even more hypothetical than everything said so far, thus ends the warning.

I'm trying to think, in terms of story, how one would go about doing that. How would JC prove himself worthy to not just be a UNATCO agent but also an MJ12 agent. If you were just to go out and do missions well you'd stay a UNATCO agent, what would it take to make them say, "Let's tell him the truth."

And if you did stay with UNATCO and end up in MJ12 how would you want the game to end?

You can see where it would go in general Take out the Luminous Path, Silhouette, X-51 and probably the NSF and the Illuminati. But if you're working for Page there isn't really any climatic thing, the struggle ends when he merges with Helios and there's no one in a position to really do anything to stop it. The possible exception is the NSF, so maybe you could have the climax be defending Area 51 from the NSF, but that doesn't seem all that climactic.

-

I'm trying to think of how it would go if you were an MJ12 agent and I think most of it would be the exact opposite of how it went in game, take out the Luminous Path instead of uniting the triads, destroy Silhouette instead of saving it, kill off the last survivors of X-51 instead of saving them, and maybe kill Dowd and Everett (MJ12 found both somehow, why not send their new star assassin?) in the middle. After that JC would probably be sent to retrieve the schematic from ocean lab, but after that where does the game go? The NSF is untouched so maybe you go after them, Page is just about ready to merge so maybe you're called back to defend him.

Of course there could be a whole new story that is totally unrelated to the game we have, but that wouldn't make much sense. (If the resistance had great things JC the MJ12 agent had to stop they should have helped JC in the normal game. That doesn't stop similar things from happening in other games though.) On the other hand even if you want to stay close to the original there is spare time. Without Tong finding out about the virus there is no reason to head back to New York (unless it's to kill Dowd) so what would a player do in that time? Head over to Paris and get an early start or something else entirely? Similarly there is a lot less to do in Paris. It's unlikely that JC would be sent to search the chateau since MJ12 already found Everett (as shown by the saboteur) unless they somehow found Everett as a result of JC contacting him. It's also unlikely that JC would go to the cathedral, unless Everett used the platoon he has on loan to take it without JC's help. JC might not be sent after Everett anyway. Also if MJ12 JC took out X-51 there's no reason for anything to happen with a missile. So that's several levels that would be skipped.

I really have no idea why I'm wondering about this.
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Post by Fulgrymm »

Jonas wrote:Deus Ex already has one forced failure with Gunther, and Warren Spector was very unhappy with it, for obvious reasons.
This forced failure, is it where you get the choice to say "I surrender" or "Here's your chance to be a hero"? Because, I've picked the latter on several occasions, and when my health reached yellow, I automatically "died" and the game loaded up the MJ12 HQ with me at half health. Not the best way to do it obviously, as I'd be there with full health if I had surrendered. This also happens in NY if you choose not to leave your brother to be killed in his apartment.
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