Sexism in games (Kingdoms of Amalur case study)

[Jetsetlemming]

Not "ideal", "idealized". And I don't want to carry on this discussion over semantics.

[DDL]

Idealized is simply 'moving from less ideal toward more ideal', so the exact same caveats regarding "definition of ideal" applies.

[Jonas]

Indeed, this is an oligarchy.

Given that neither I nor Trestkon nor (I think) anybody else with moderator power here is particularly rich, I think the word you're looking for is aristocracy.

[AEmer]

Like I said earlier, I just don't have the energy/willpower for a serious in depth discussion of sex roles and societal effects when I have to struggle to get anything I say understood. I'd much rather stick to lighter stuff like joking with jonas and linking the writings of other people at this point.

Which is obviously fine; and yeah, there is something to that. It can be very tricky to get your points clearly accross.

But I've certainly read carefully what you're written. I've tried to understand your points to the best of my ability.

It's not for fun that I dug through that hulk article, his followup, or a podcast. I've participated in several gender-discussions online, even to the point of having to abandon one on really bad terms. From my viewpoint I'm a feminist, but I've never claimed to be one, because the few feminists I've met don't seem to think I am a feminist, and if it's not being recognized on its own, declaring it myself is obviously meaningless. I also seem to be diverging on this issue from those I typically associate with.

I do believe in positive discrimination via government intervention in certain cases, which makes me a misandrist to some of my friends, and I'll gladly compare the lack of normal women with the lack of fat men in games under some circumstances, which makes me a mysogynist discussion derail'er to at least one self-proclaimed feminist I've argued with.

I'm not at all certain my stance is the right one, but I cannot find a flaw with the logic I've used to reason it out myself. There might be flaws and hidden inconsistencies, and it seems like there should be, because I seem to be so relatively alone with some of these viewpoints. And, well, your body dimorphism and normalization points were actually really good. I really got something from those. It's a great added perspective...and to an extent, it adds a level of social responsibility that game developers should have no problems assuming. A few extra constraints in this area won't hurt a thing.

So don't think you're hammering your head against a wall; at least for my part, if I seem like an immovable object, it's either a quirk of my means of expression, or it's wholly unintentional. I mean, if you're bummed out about the discussion, stick to doing what you want to do. If you don't think it's worth it, don't do it.

But, well, this is encouragement that you don't need to be a master orator to actually make meaningful discourse, if you should change your mind.

[AEmer]

Indeed, this is an oligarchy.

Given that neither I nor Trestkon nor (I think) anybody else with moderator power here is particularly rich, I think the word you're looking for is aristocracy.

From one point of view, you own this forum; if this forum was a land, you'd be the richest people in it.

[AEmer]

Not "ideal", "idealized". And I don't want to carry on this discussion over semantics.

But it's not semantics though. Noone Almost noone really cares if you wrote one thing or another, or whatever the things you write mean.
We care what you think. We care what you mean by what you write, not whether what you write is actually what you mean.

He wants you to define "idealized" not to illustrate that you're using the wrong word, but to understand the word you were using, in order to get you to specify more clearly what you intended to say.

Personally, I think it's reasonably clear: You think it's idealized, because you think the intention of the authors was that the game should be more marketable to penis-bearing individuals, and that the appearance of the female characters was optimized towards that end, to some degree or another. That the natural breast size the team would've crafted if they didn't target this segment in particular would have been smaller.

That's what you mean, a nutshell, correct?

Still, it's not semantics. Of course, pointing out that it's not semantics is a matter of semantics, so you've got me on that one.

[Jonas]

From one point of view, you own this forum; if this forum was a land, you'd be the richest people in it.

False. One can be a land-owner and not be the richest person around. There was a period in European history when it was common for bankrupt aristocrats to marry their children off to rich merchants in order for the family to come into money again, while the merchants would get the pleasure of their children becoming nobility.

Plus, we got this place because we're awesome, not because we've got loads of money, and all the moderators were appointed for also being awesome (or through good old-fashioned nepotism). Definitely an aristocracy

[AEmer]

From one point of view, you own this forum; if this forum was a land, you'd be the richest people in it.

False. One can be a land-owner and not be the richest person around. There was a period in European history when it was common for bankrupt aristocrats to marry their children off to rich merchants in order for the family to come into money again, while the merchants would get the pleasure of their children becoming nobility.

Plus, we got this place because we're awesome, not because we've got loads of money, and all the moderators were appointed for also being awesome (or through good old-fashioned nepotism). Definitely an aristocracy

Except none of the moderators have any power of their own; all their special moderator powers spring forth from the ownership. It's like the brittish peerage system; the sovereign is the fountain of all recognition, and only the recognition of the sovereign truly matters. Except it can't be a monarchy since there isn't a single monarch; there is instead a somewhat competetive group wherefrom all power springs.

We might decide to live in your land freely, and it might be a benevolent oligarchy, but you are it's elite rulers that ultimately make all executive, judicial and legislative decisions, either implicitly or explicitly. Noone else can ever truly join your class, and you can never be dethroned. There is no mobility to and from the ownership class.

Also, the currency of the realm of europe? Usually currency and not land. This forum on the other hand, if it was a land, you wouldn't merely own all the earth beneath everyones feet, you'd own the very existence of the domain (an appropriate term, all things considered). One might well argue that you're closer to being the living pantheon of gods on this forum, rather than mere aristocrats...

Finally...the fact that you made this because you were awesome...did Odins reasons for creating middle earth matter after he had done it? Did Zeus reasons for attaining power matter after he had attained it? A system of ruling is distinguished by the properties of its state, not its creation, I'd argue...

And, yes, I'm being an ass by taking this to a completely unnecessary level of abstraction, but you started it

[Jonas]

IT IS AN ARISTOCRACY AND IF YOU QUESTION ME AGAIN I WILL BAN YOU PERMANENTLY FROM THESE BOARDS!

(Also, a malevolent dictatorship.)

[AEmer]

hahah, well we do have a reasonable amount of freedom of speech

[DaveW]

hahah, well we do have a reasonable amount of freedom of speech

If I had moderator status I'd delete your post to make a point. Which is probably why I don't (and will never have) said moderator status.

[Jetsetlemming]

[DDL]

So they're pitching their game exclusively at "gamers, who are men, who have girlfriends, and actually care enough about those girlfriends to buy them flowers -if they're discounted"?

Gutsy!

[Jonas]

Winning strategy if ever I saw one.

[Jetsetlemming]

So they're pitching their game exclusively at "gamers, who are men, who have girlfriends, and actually care enough about those girlfriends to buy them flowers -if they're discounted"?

Gutsy!

But don't care enough to actually put any effort into valentines besides "here's some flowers now fuck off while I play my car game".