Pen and Paper RPGs

UFOs, lost socks, discuss whatever you like here.

Moderators: Master_Kale, TNM Team

User avatar
Jaedar
Illuminati
Posts: 3937
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:01 pm
Location: Terra, Sweden, Uppsala.

Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by Jaedar »

So for the last... year or so I've been playing dark heresy with some dudes from the 'codex. However, we're kinda getting bored of it at this point and are looking to start something else sometime early next year.

My question is this: Does anyone know any supah cool pnps? The only real restriction is that it must be playable over the internet, so no elaborate props.
"Delays are temporary; mediocrity is forever."
odio ergo sum
User avatar
Jonas
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
Posts: 14224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Hafnia

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by Jonas »

Oh man oh man oh man. I used to be so into PnP in high school, but then I dated one of the girls in the group and then we broke up and then fucking exams happened and nobody had time anymore and then high school ended and I've not seen any of them since then because I suck at staying in touch with people and I got new and better friends anyway.

So I own rule books for four different systems: Dungeons & Dragons 3.5, Dungeons & Dragons 4E, Call of Cthulhu, and World of Darkness with Vampire: The Requiem. I've only played CoC and WoD once each, though, and I've only played D&D 4E over the Internet (we used a program the name of which escapes me which turned out to be a little too clunky).

Additionally the main game I played at the peak of our group in high school was a Danish system called LEF, but it has a very... particular aesthetic that seems like it's really hard to replicate unless you either play with the guy who created it or somebody who's played with him. It's a low fantasy sort of thing that's always evolving, with the stories emerging from the creator's own games being constantly added into the canon of the default setting, which by the last time I played was a sort of semi-industrialised almost-steampunk world - fantasy with gunpowder and airships, essentially. I'm not sure I can recommend it, but there was a lot I liked about the game (d6 based) and the skill system (it was kind of like TES in that you levelled up by using your skills).

I also played some games of Cyberpunk 2020, both as a player and as a game master. Sadly neither game really took off. It's a super brutal system, you're basically fucked if you end up in a gunfight and you don't have cybernetics coming out your ears, but again it has a lot of things to like - it really manages to replicate that stereotypical 80's cyberpunk feel.

I think in purely mechanical terms World of Darkness is probably my favourite. If you don't play with Vampire or Werewolf, I think you don't have to run an urban fantasy game. The skill system itself and the way you make checks and all that is all nicely done and uses values that you can relate to and that scale well. I particularly like how satisfying it is to roll a shitload of dice, but I guess that may not really be a factor if you're playing over the Internet.
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
AEmer
Illuminati
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:04 am

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by AEmer »

I've played a lot of 4th edition D&D.
It takes too big of an investment, but on the other hand, it probably has the best campaigns and campaign tools.
The big problem comes from the absolutely massive and sometimes highly esoteric ruleset. I can't recommend it for this reason.

But it is perfectly playable without the tool Jonas and I used, which is called Maptools, even online.

I generally dislike the length of the combat; the problem is specifically how much irrelevant choice it presents to the player.
Don't get me wrong, it's complex and rich, and it would be really awesome when your rogue turns into a flurry of blows, if not for the fact that his turn will end up consuming all of 10 minutes.

Generally, I would recommend a system where the object of the game is to disable one or more of your enemies through cooperation, and then immediately have them die afterwards, or recover immediately. Particularly the end of the scenarios, where victory has been determined, but you still need to slug through several hundred hitpoints worth of gnolls, I find about as interesting as I do taking down the trash.

It may be possible to find something which is light on combat, and if the players play with half hitpoints and the monsters with a quarter, it might work better...but even if that's my biggest complaint, it doesn't eliminate the biggest problem: Ginormous, complex and unnecessary ruleset.
User avatar
Jaedar
Illuminati
Posts: 3937
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:01 pm
Location: Terra, Sweden, Uppsala.

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by Jaedar »

Generally, I've only heard bad things about 4th Ed DnD except from GM's. If we were to switch to DnD(looks unlikely atm) we'd probably play the pathfinder thing. WoD looks interesting to me, and I've heard good things about it.

The systems Jonas mentioned, Lef and cyberpunk 2020 I've never even heard of ;) 2020 sounds very cool though.
AEmer wrote: I generally dislike the length of the combat; the problem is specifically how much irrelevant choice it presents to the player.
Don't get me wrong, it's complex and rich, and it would be really awesome when your rogue turns into a flurry of blows, if not for the fact that his turn will end up consuming all of 10 minutes.
This is one of the things I really like about dark heresy. Combat is fairly quick and brutal. You can pretty much kill anything in one turn(of course, the same is true for dying) and even if you're firing a weapon full auto, there's not too many dice to roll. As long as people know their rules and modifiers well, any action will only require the roll of one d100.
AEmer wrote: But it is perfectly playable without the tool Jonas and I used, which is called Maptools, even online.
We currently use maptools for combat, but use pure text for all exploration. Maptools seems really powerful, but no one has the time/energy to learn how to use it properly.
"Delays are temporary; mediocrity is forever."
odio ergo sum
User avatar
Jonas
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
Posts: 14224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Hafnia

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by Jonas »

Well what sort of game are you interested in? Are you totally open to any kind of aesthetic/setting as long as the rules are good, or what? Do you want something rules-heavy or something light that relies more on roleplay? I mean if you're after a system where the rules don't get in the way of roleplaying, Call of Cthulhu is pretty good. If you're after a system with rules for everything, something like Cyberpunk 2020 would probably be a good call. I should say that considering how heavy it is on rules, combat is usually pretty fast-paced - especially if you don't have enough cyberware to keep you alive after the first time you're shot. Did you ever read the book "Friday Night Firefight" in TNM? The one that talks about how real firefights are completely unlike what you see in most movies and TV shows? That was actually the intro to Cyberpunk 2020's combat rules.

World of Darkness is probably somewhere in the middle - it doesn't try to have rules for everything but its system is flexible enough that you can come up with house rules fairly intuitively when you need to. I like its rule system for a couple of reasons: it uses very small skill values (they go from 1-5 IIRC) and it doesn't have levels. Also instead of rolling a certain type of die and then adding the result to your skills or whatever, then comparing it to a pre-determined difficulty level, your skills indicate how many dice you get to roll, with 5 or 6 on a die counting as one success, and then you compare the number of successes you rolled with a pre-determined required number.

But I mean it depends on whether you're after a certain aesthetic genre or type of setting. If you and your group want to play a fantasy game, Cyberpunk 2020 is not going to cut it, and I think World of Darkness is best for modern day settings with horror or fantasy elements. Especially Call of Cthulhu doesn't make any kind of sense to play in a setting other than the Cthulhu mythos.
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
User avatar
Jaedar
Illuminati
Posts: 3937
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:01 pm
Location: Terra, Sweden, Uppsala.

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by Jaedar »

We're kinda open to most settings I think. Anyway, thanks for your suggestions, gonna bring some of this stuff up next time we talk about it.
"Delays are temporary; mediocrity is forever."
odio ergo sum
AEmer
Illuminati
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:04 am

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by AEmer »

I really don't enjoy the games where your trade skills are too random.

In D&D, they have the take-10 rule. Since the die has 20 sides, taking 10 means there are 10 higher values you could've hit, and 9 lower, meaning you're just a tiny smidge unlucky.

You can only take-10 in a setting where you have plenty of time and space, and if you roll and get less than 10, you obviously have to use that....but it does mean you won't ever fail at things that are too mundane. Which is great; I think failing at easy to do things breaks immersion considerably, and while it can be quite humorous, it makes the party and characters feel...impotent and incompetent.

Fortunately, in D&D 4e, there are very few opposed rolls, so it's a lot more predictable, while still allowing for some massive fumbles.

But as I said, I can't recommend it, even if I have a lot of fun with it every week. We're currently at paragon level, my party and I, and the rule intensity is far too high for my liking at the moment.
User avatar
Jaedar
Illuminati
Posts: 3937
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:01 pm
Location: Terra, Sweden, Uppsala.

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by Jaedar »

Paragon level, I'm assuming that's epic levels aka demi-godhood?

That's actually another one of the reasons we're leaving dark heresy, we're approaching the standard level cap.

The take-10 sounds interesting, but I'm of the opinion that if something is mundane enough you should just allow an auto-success.
"Delays are temporary; mediocrity is forever."
odio ergo sum
AEmer
Illuminati
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:04 am

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by AEmer »

Jaedar wrote:Paragon level, I'm assuming that's epic levels aka demi-godhood?

That's actually another one of the reasons we're leaving dark heresy, we're approaching the standard level cap.

The take-10 sounds interesting, but I'm of the opinion that if something is mundane enough you should just allow an auto-success.
paragon is level 10-20. Epic is 20-30. Heroic is 1-10.

At paragon, you're signigicantly more powerful and well known.

I really like playing my current character, but only because of how he functions as part of the team; he's a utility guy, moving around enemies, giving extra attacks to allies, and on-demand boosting allies defenses.
User avatar
Jaedar
Illuminati
Posts: 3937
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:01 pm
Location: Terra, Sweden, Uppsala.

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by Jaedar »

My current char is an Adept, basically a dude who knows stuff. I've also taken a dark pact and am practising sorcery. Should either of these be discovered, I'm basically going to be killed by another member of the group(and just about every authority there is). It makes for some very entertaining larp, juggling secrets while still making use of them.
"Delays are temporary; mediocrity is forever."
odio ergo sum
AEmer
Illuminati
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:04 am

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by AEmer »

yup.

I once cut off the head of a dwarf to cover up a murder. I figured he couldn't be positively identified without it.

I had to sneak off to do it because the others didn't want to cover it up; he'd attacked us, after all.

I later used it as an improvised throwing weapon to see what kind of reaction I could get from people.
User avatar
Jonas
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
Posts: 14224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Hafnia

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by Jonas »

Jaedar wrote:larp
Are you standing up?

Old tabletop RPG saying: if you're standing up, you're LARPing. As in, you're doing it wrong ;)
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
User avatar
Jaedar
Illuminati
Posts: 3937
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:01 pm
Location: Terra, Sweden, Uppsala.

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by Jaedar »

Not really. It's just that we call what roleplaying larping. It's easier to say and involves just the perfect amount of mockery suited for 6 people in different parts of the world sitting at their computers pretending they are 6 different people looking for HERESY. In the same vein, someone who is powergaming but justifying it in character is a powerlarper ;)

Codexian thing I suppose.
AEmer wrote: I had to sneak off to do it because the others didn't want to cover it up; he'd attacked us, after all.
How does that work if you're playing irl? passing notes or just assume people won't use the OOC knowledge against you?
"Delays are temporary; mediocrity is forever."
odio ergo sum
User avatar
Jonas
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
Posts: 14224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Hafnia

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by Jonas »

But LARPing is another thing entirely. You are aware of this, yes? It's a codexian thing to use the wrong word for tabletop roleplaying? I would've assumed, the Codex being made up of elitist bastards, that they'd at least want to use the right terms for stuff.

Not that I give a shit when it comes down to it, mind.
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
User avatar
Jaedar
Illuminati
Posts: 3937
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:01 pm
Location: Terra, Sweden, Uppsala.

Re: Pen and Paper RPGs

Post by Jaedar »

I know what larping is yes. The codex has just "expanded the definition" to also include concepts in gaming and pnp games. Bit silly, yeah.

The thing that started the expanded definition was this uesp article http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Roleplaying it kind of just.... went forward after that. Now that I think about it though, I think it's only our group who use it for something in tabletop.
Jonas wrote: the Codex being made up of elitist bastards
flattery will get you nowhere :(
"Delays are temporary; mediocrity is forever."
odio ergo sum
Post Reply