BioShock Infinite's 1999 Mode

[bobby 55]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm BioShock 2. Those Little Sister defence sequences. Soooooo well designed.

They were a great way to get "research" points. Unless you followed Bob's fireball everything policy.

[Jaedar]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm BioShock 2. Those Little Sister defence sequences. Soooooo well designed.

You didn't like them I take it? May I ask why?

I thought they were a refreshing change of pace and a good opportunity to whip out all the AoE weapons that saw little use against single enemies.

Besides, I like betting on things, it's not just a question of faith. I occasionally lose, but I win much more often.

Just to be clear, I'm not gonna bet with you. It would not feel right to take your money when you have no way of telling whether I cheated or not, and I prefer to play for fun. I will still remember it just so I can rub it in your face tho

[Jonas]

You didn't like them I take it? May I ask why?

How... what? Have things come to a point where the default is to assume I'm being sarcastic?

I loved the little sister defence sequences! They're some of the best game design I've ever seen, a perfect storm of brilliant level design and precisely the right tools to make use of it. The way you had to prepare by analysing the level, identifying points of entry and deploying your items and ammunition in a way that suited each approach vector (laser rivets for doorways, electric harpoons for hallways, proximity grenades and charged cyclone plasmids for open areas, and a turret for backup). The way the fight changed as it progressed and your defenses were gradually depleted - the way you would try to lure enemies into traps that hadn't been sprung yet.

Fuck no, I genuinely loved those sequences. I love the idea of setting up traps in games in general, but so few games manage to make use of it. Too many shooters or RPGs will put traps at your disposal and then relentlessly pace you forwards or spring enemies on you from unexpected directions with no warning so you never really have a chance to set up a good trap. I thought it was so much fun to finally get access to a wide selection of different traps and then be faced with situations where you had to use them, all of them, and intelligently too.

No sarcasm, BioShock 2's defence sequences were fucking ace

[kdawg88]

SS2 wasn't even that hard. If they're going to bother with this, make it 1994 mode, and then I'll be interested. It's all marketing to me.

[AEmer]

@Jonas

Yes. People will assume you're being sarcastic if you ever use deliberately incorrect spelling.
I wouldn't assume it, but I wasn't sure what to make of what you were saying, not having played Bioshock myself.

Perhaps that's unfair, but I think it's because you're good at making curt, poisoned comments. That sounds mean, but look at this thread: "God damnit" - no explanation, because none is necessary.

Everybody knows it's because you wanted to take Jaedar, or rather the point of view he defended, down a notch, by illustrating how it frustrates you and how the demands made are so impossible to satisfy that the effort of arguing against it is futile.

So uh..yeah. You probably need to say something like "if we're being honest" or "candidly" or something if you ever make a really brief really enthusiastic comment around here =P

@Jaedar

I hope you will. No, really. Sometimes I hate being wrong, but this is one instance where I would cherish it. And you may rub my nose in it as much as you want if you make it =P
If I did make an actual bet (which, again, you'd be inelligible for), I'd need the evidence by means of a lets play... I'm not an idiot, but if there's nothing at stake I'll take your word for it.

Perhaps I should explain in more detail why the idea of a 1999 mode compels me to think the way I do.

In Ultima 5, I believe it is, you need to give money to an old man to proceed in the story. He's not pointed out to you by anyone, but he has something you're looking for. You can give him a ton of money, but unless you've already talked a priest on another planet into thinking you're worthy, it won't do a thing. There's hundreds of npc's in the game world, and you have no idea who holds the key to proceeding.

Back in 1990, or 1993 or whenever it was released, this was an impossible task to solve without consulting a guide, or calling the developers support up and explaining you were stuck.

I don't expect the 1999 mode will be this hard to solve going in blind, but I do expect that at some point, a first time player will make a wrong turn, and will have to load a save from somewhere during the beginning of the game. And I think that it is in peoples nature to, at that point or before, seek help, and, essentially, cheat.

Personally I feel that, if it's not a cheatcode or a walkthrough, it's not cheating...but surely someone wanting to play a game in super-hardcore mode should be less lenient on himself.

...and I think that whoever does this to himself will be so out of his element, compared to the much more lenient games of today, that he'll simply give up.

well not whoever. Someone is bound to be insane enough to press on despite this, but I think odds are good that noone I know is this insane.

[Hassat Hunter]

I've made SS2 without it... I wont expect this mode to be more difficult. So... why not?

Unless they make a quest sooo convoluted. But I doubt it would be just for 1999 mode then, "original" players will get screwed over too then...

PS. 'Us' "RPG Players" are used to having no reset character option. I never have used such a feature in any game. Nope, not Divinity 2 either. So... if it just means you're stuck to the build you use, it's just same old, same old.

[AEmer]

I've made SS2 without it... I wont expect this mode to be more difficult. So... why not?

Unless they make a quest sooo convoluted. But I doubt it would be just for 1999 mode then, "original" players will get screwed over too then...

PS. 'Us' "RPG Players" are used to having no reset character option. I never have used such a feature in any game. Nope, not Divinity 2 either. So... if it just means you're stuck to the build you use, it's just same old, same old.

If you've never had to abandon a character due to unfortunate character branches, it's because you've never been fucked by a character system.

Presumably you've never completed diablo 2 on hell with the first character you made in that game either, though, am I right?

Secondly, SS2 isn't particularly hard on normal mode. I can't say that I made it through in a vacuum: I'd played the demo, and knew how it was possible to fuck up by being spotted by security camera's, and I had also read about the game to understand how that worked. I also read other things about the game, like which weapons I could expect to be good, and that guided which skills I trained. Understanding alarms and having a rough idea of which skills it would be a good idea to take doubtlessly helped me. It was my first survival horror game, so even if I probably could have completed the game playing it completely cold, knowing these few tidbits probably helped me a good bit.

But even so: SS2 doesn't actually require loading save games, and like human revolution, you can max out everything you'd care for way before the end of the game with ease, if you ignore psi...on normal difficulty.

The question is, could you have completed SS2 without needing outside help if you played it cold on the hardest difficulty level?

Also, if you want a challenge...have you completed ultima underworld 2? If not, you can give heading into that game cold a try. I'd be surprised if you'll be able to beat it with no outside help at all, on your first character, and claim that way of playing would be more enjoyable than the alternatives.

[DDL]

I'm a bit confused as to what everyone thinks this mode will actually involve...

My take on it is simply

>weapons will be unusable without points in the requisite skill
(and this could be anything from SS2's extremist 'you can't even hold the fucking thing without X points in the skill' up to 'you can use it, but it's going to be shit, have no accuracy, and take an age to reload', a la Deus ex)

>skill/plasmid choices are permanent and irrevocable

>health will be lower, enemy health will be higher, possibly health regen (if present) will now be absent

>ammo/equipment drops will be rarer

Beyond that, I'm less sure: all the above fixes are relatively easy to implement, since they're mostly all just straight coding. Things like plot choices and story progression are much, much trickier to fuck around with, since they impinge on so much of the game, on several different levels. So I suspect the story itself will play out similarly either way, but in the 'hardmode' version you'll actually have to fight to survive.

But we shall see.

As for 'completing X on the hardest difficulty, going in cold', surely that's irrelevant?

A) we have savegames, of the infinite variety, so unless you do something stupid like make sure to only keep one save, and make that save just as you leap off a cliff, you are always going to be able to keep trying. Any game of this type, no matter how hard, or how fucked your skill build, will be winnable through sheer attrition. This will be mindfuckingly tedious, sure, but still: possible.

B) 'Going in cold' is essentially meaningless now: virtually everyone who plays games now has some experience of these games, and thus understands enough of the general principles that unless the game tries to do something really really weird (only shoot the monsters' reflections! And aim for the feet! -this is not in the manual!).

C) "insane questlines" are not exactly a hallmark of difficulty. Even back in the ultima days, anything as stupid as the quest you described is unarguably shitty game design. Yes, they probably made a fairly decent profit off the helpline number (and in fact, that may have been the point?) but I very much doubt anyone involved in that game would think that something that necessitates a helpline call is good game design (again, unless that's the idea). It's only difficult if it's...difficult: i.e. something you can figure out if you're smart enough/good enough. If it's so bizarre as to be effectively random, then it's not difficult: no amount of additional skill will help you. It's just ...stupid.

(uh..in my opinion)

[Hassat Hunter]

Presumably you've never completed diablo 2 on hell with the first character you made in that game either, though, am I right?

I never liked Diablo 2, so didn't even make it past the demo-stage.

I had also read about the game to understand how that worked. I also read other things about the game, like which weapons I could expect to be good, and that guided which skills I trained. Understanding alarms and having a rough idea of which skills it would be a good idea to take doubtlessly helped me.

Who the heck reads maximising guides and powerbuild tips before even playing a game?

Also, if you want a challenge...have you completed ultima underworld 2? If not, you can give heading into that game cold a try. I'd be surprised if you'll be able to beat it with no outside help at all, on your first character, and claim that way of playing would be more enjoyable than the alternatives.

Nope. Will try if you gift it though . Got enough games to play as is...

[AEmer]

I didn't do either of those. Why did you assume I did?

I don't recall where I got the information, but it was neither a powerbuild nor a guide.

Knowing me, it was probably a recommendation that came from pdx' off topic forum, that basically said the assault rifle was good, and that carrying two laser pistols would let you shoot the overcharge shot on one, switch to the other and quickly fire again, and would effectively double your ammo capacity.

I don't think I actually had any other hints than that, and the awareness that camera's would mess you up when I played...it was a long time before I figured out that I could deactivate alarms from security substations.

re. ultima underworld 2

Game came out in march 1992. It's abandonware; you couldn't track down a copy if you wanted to, and it would be on floppy disks if you did. So if you're not emulator averse, it's essentially free to play: Have at it.

[AEmer]

@DDL

Well, the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy text adventure is supposedly one of the hardest text adventures ever, and its difficulty derives chiefly from the utter randomness of what you're supposed to do.

It's also a very enjoyable game to play, but in a very weird way.

Secondly, you're right: Those metrics are irrelevant. It's not that people can't do it, it's that people won't. I know that if I bet someone to do it, they would. But I don't expect anyone I know to attempt to play the game cold in this mode, and subsequently complete it without getting any information from other players.

Again, it's not that they can't: It's that they won't find this style of play enjoyable, and that they will cheat on it to heighten their enjoyment.

This is assuming that it is, in fact, very difficult.

[Jaedar]

What decisions do you have to live with in 1999 mode that you don't normally?
Even in regular difficulty mode, you're still making choices about your nostrums, which are similar to the gene tonics [in BioShock]. You're still making permanent choices about those. They're stuck to your body permanently. The big difference in terms of choices in this mode is that you're not going to be able to be a jack-of-all-trades, much like in games we've done before. If you're going in one direction, like one weapon or a certain type of vigor, that's going to come at the expense of other weapons and other vigors. If you're specialized in, say, rifles, and you're out of ammo for that and you come across a bunch of pistols or rocket launchers or something, you're going to be not so good with those weapons and you're going to feel that pain. You're really going to be incentivized to find resources for the weapons you're good at.

Do you worry that the challenge will get in the way of the authored experience that's at the core of BioShock?
I think that's a risk, certainly. Probably what we're going to do is you'll only be able to get to that mode through some kind of unlock. Not unlock in the game through "left, right, up, down," that kind of thing. But the kind of people who are going to play this are hardcore gamers, right? The people who are going to read Game Informer, go to various blogs and websites, and find this information. Those are the kind of people who are going to want this kind of challenge, I think. But yeah, there's definitely a risk that you're going to get pounded so much that you may not be able to take in the environment as much as the guy who is playing on easy or super easy. We want to give something to the people who are more interested in the game aspects and the resource management aspects.

Modern design is modern for a reason. How are you trying to recapture the feeling from 1999 without falling into the same pitfalls?
As we design a game now, we have to have the game react to the player and endeavor to provide a fun experience to that player relative to their playstyle. Games are designed to be flexible now and accommodate gamers, and I think there are some really good things with that. As nostalgic as we get, if all games were like they were in 1999, there is some segment of the population that would love that.

source : http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/ ... ageIndex=2


Turns out your "talent" choices will always be permanent.

[Jonas]

I hope you can upgrade your pistols enough that they're equally as effective as the rifles. I quite enjoyed my second playthrough of DXHR where I prioritised my pistol and it ended up just as powerful and effective as my souped-up assault rifle had been in the previous playthrough.

[shadowblade34]

This isn't reall related, but Jonas' last post reminds me of how I always upgraded the Stealth Pisto in Deus Ex, best lethal weapon in the game. IIRC Jonas also said it was good when he was speaking in the Game Central DX 10th Anniversary podcast

[Hassat Hunter]

I stick to the general pistol (especially seeing it's already modded with a few packs when I got the stealth). Don't see why Stealth's better...