Sexism in games (Kingdoms of Amalur case study)

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AEmer
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by AEmer »

@Bobbi
You like Aria T'Loak because she's played by trinity from The Matrix, and she is hawt. Aria has a decent enough role to play in the novel leading up to ME2, and in the novel after ME2.

@DDL
I actually love Adams beard. I'm generally in favor of beards on my male protagonists. Just don't get me wrong: I love it because it makes him look like a d-bag, to me :-D But you're right DDL.

Also: This is what a woman meant to appeal to women looks like:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Av4xrD-qSB8/T ... ctures.jpg
This is what a woman meant to appeal to men looks like:
http://viloux.com/fashion_news/article/ ... r-2011.jpg

(here's a hint: It's the same woman)
Just to illustrate that everybody loves beautiful women with perfect skin, not just men. Not that I think women are especially targeted with the more bodacious character designs outthere, don't get me wrong, just saying that tits, skin, makeup? Everybody enjoy those.

The framing of the women in question obviously varies, as it does on those two magazine covers

@ Jonas
Also...I don't think you can take more bulletwounds if you're bigger. I don't...I don't know where it says that you can. Overall, I think DDL made a great argument (that was fun to read) of what I was saying: Muscles are nice, a certain level of strength, sure. I'd even argue that being a mountain of muscle will tend to make you very speedy over short distances.

But being a second faster in a sprint really is nothing compared to the value of making the right decisions and never flinching, and nowhere does it say that giant meat men are better at those things. The selection bias of the harsh environment in no way pressuposes that the meatmen would survive more often than everybody else. Strongminded, agile and clever, those seem like the traits war-survival would select for.

I will give you that chainsawing aliens is probably easier if you're able to benchpress 300 pounds than just 150. I just really doubt that's particularly relevant to survival odds compared to the will to simply have at it with the chainsaw in the first place, or the mental faculties to avoid those situations.

Now, about the analogy. I would argue that it's not an apt comparison, because I didn't pick an irrelevant aspect that doesn't work - I picked a relevant one. You're right that putting more women with smaller breasts in movies and games doesn't marginalize those with larger breasts. I'm not calling that into question, and I never did. But Arguing that you should do that, because having women with larger breasts in the games and movies objectifies women does marginalize them, because that presupposes that large breasts are inherently more sexual. That's stereotyping.

Your comparison argument didn't have that kind of stereotyping in it; the original argument does contain that kind of stereotyping. This is why I would object to the original argument, not the comparison argument. That's why I said the comparison didn't work; there was a relevant distinction.

...If the only argument is that it's unrealistic for x% of women to have x breast size...if sexual objectification doesn't tie into it, but it's merely a question of statistical authenticity...then I'd say, you got a point there. But that's not how this argument was framed, is it? It's relevant because breast size matters for other reasons than mere realism. The incorrect portrayal of breasts is used to make females prettier, to objectify them, which is a real problem. In fact, if breast size didn't matter, there wouldn't be a problem in the first place, because then the authors wouldn't have bothered making the breasts unrealistically big (which they're not, as we've established by some consensus, but the argument I made assumed that they actually were, so need to keep going down that road).

The underlying problem isn't that there are too many large breasts, but rather, that large breasts are attributed with sexual significance over other breasts. Asking for smaller breasts is treating the symptoms, not the cause; the cause being that breast size matters, so by treating the symptoms, or asking for the symptoms to be treated, you actually contribute to the cause.

Now, third time and counting, I may be on the wrong side of this, because treating the symptoms may be more important than treating the cause in this matter. Now that brings me to this question
Do you genuinely hold the opinion that women with large breasts are an oppressed minority compared to more averagely endowed women?
Yes I do.

http://www.thefrisky.com/2010-10-19/its ... sts-again/

This woman took one photograph of herself that showed som top-boob, and a year later her political opponents are using it against her. This is a direct concequence of how society views breasts, and it's more than a little unfair.

And no, I'm not perscribing large breasts in games and movies as a solution. I'm prescribing "let us ignore breast size" as a solution. I'm saying let's treat all size breasts the same, nomatter where or how they appear.
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Jetsetlemming
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by Jetsetlemming »

Jonas wrote:Because one makes you a hero, the other makes you a breeder. There is no real equivalence, and the unequality hugely favours men.

However, I maintain that these are perfectly valid proportions for a humanoid female:
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/64875 ... AC8069588/
That outfit's one of the "good ones" that doesn't specifically emphasize the chest, unlike, say, this one:
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/59470 ... EAB54BB7E/
There is no context ever that boob armor is acceptable, imo.

edit: I will say though that I really appreciated the face and hair options they gave me in making this character. In the character creation screen your character's body just kinda fades below the collar, so I had no idea she was stacked like a supermodel until I got ingame and put on leather armor you get in the first few minutes, and saw how it looked.
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AEmer
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by AEmer »

Yes. Clearly, noone would ever consider making a fashion statement with their armor.
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Jetsetlemming
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by Jetsetlemming »

Those are all terrible examples, especially that first one, jesus.
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DDL
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by DDL »

There is no context ever that boob armor is acceptable
Wait, what? Are you seriously saying that a suit of armour that actually fits the body of its wearer is never acceptable, if that wearer has tits?

Ok,
A) it's plate armour. It is not a bra. Saying the character in plate armour has huge tits is like saying a guy wearing a bomb disposal suit is really, really fat. You need the armour to both cover the body, leave enough space for a degree of movement, and also be thick enough to act as..well, armour. So you're going to go up a cup size or two when you don armour, just like how a man in plate armour has a much larger chest.

B) you're going to be moving around a lot in that armour: if it doesn't fit well, it will chafe. I don't have tits, but I do have nipples, and have run a half-marathon in a poorly fitting t-shirt, and believe me: you DO NOT WANT CHAFING. EVER. (is this TMI? Possibly. I still have nightmares about this, btw)

C) regarding chest plates having tits, aside from all the above reasoning, a nice easy GIS for 'roman breastplate' would reveal that this is by no means a phenomenon without male precedent. Hell, some of them even had nipples (eat your heart out, Joel Schumacher's Batman).

D) I still don't think that photo you posted looks bad. That looks like a relatively comfy suit of armour. And again, it gets points for not having, say, a plunging neckline so as to emphasise cleavage while removing all plausibility and defense in the neck area.
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Jonas
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by Jonas »

Here's the thing though, Aemer: large breasts are sexual. They're sexual because a) they're erogenous zones, and b) for whatever reason, men are turned on by them. If that's what you want to change... I wish you the best of luck on the latter but you better leave the former alone ;)

When it comes to games, you've perverted the argument:
"I'm prescribing "let us ignore breast size" as a solution. I'm saying let's treat all size breasts the same, nomatter where or how they appear."
No. If every single female character in a game has huge breasts, that will pretty much always be because they're meant to make men drool. It's not the actual problem, it's a symptom of the problem (the problem being: this game objectifies women to appeal to - the lowest common denominator of - men). Ignoring that will not make it go away. Ignoring it will not make men stop getting aroused by large breasts. Ignoring that will not make women feel less marginalised by the game.

All former caveats (that have largely gone unacknowledged by anybody except DDL) still apply.
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AEmer
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by AEmer »

DDL said it all, but yes, some of those examples are terrible.

They're examples of terrible fashion sense, but they illustrate that women and men alike are interested in making fashion statements with their armor. It's not merely a utilitarian worksuit, it's something you use to send a message.

In some of those cases, that message is wealth, in others, it's power and durability. And in some of those cases, it's that there's a bossom below.

Never you mind if it's possible to have a utilitarian purpose as well, as DDL argues, armor is supposed to make a visual impression through fashion, as well as giving the wearer added protection. If it's fashionable to have tits on the armor, then there's going to be tits on the armor, and this is neither sexist, objectifying or dumb.
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Jetsetlemming
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by Jetsetlemming »

DDL wrote:
There is no context ever that boob armor is acceptable
Wait, what? Are you seriously saying that a suit of armour that actually fits the body of its wearer is never acceptable, if that wearer has tits?
No, that's not what I'm saying. It's not that the armor "fits", it's that they're trying to make somebody in full plate armor sexy, and show off their curves. In full plate armor. Those roman suits of armor with the pecs and six packs weren't form fitting the super manly men underneath, they were faking an appearance of being super strong and impressive. Having two globes out in front of your armor is impractical, structurally unsound, and looks really uncomfortable.
Here's an example of good armor, regardless of sex:
Image
Note that there appears to be plenty enough room to fit whatever needs to for both characters, without having retarded ass features like having a divot in the center of your chest to attract incoming attacks and damage to a singular point.
If you want to have sexy people, trying to take non-sexual dress like plate armor and make it sexy is a really goddamn terrible idea, and it just looks absurd and desperate whenever it's attempted. For all the complaints that Nintendo's gotten from where they've taken Metroid in the last few years, at least they haven't tried to put boobs on the goddamn Varia Suit. Instead when they want Sexy Samus she gets out of her goddamn armor and runs around in the body suit she wears under it.
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Jonas
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by Jonas »

I fully sympathise with your feminism Jetset, but I think you're taking it too far. I don't believe it's necessary to make armour completely androgynous, and I don't think making the top of a plate mail moderately form-fitting is unreasonable. After all, when you select to play a female character, you want to be able to tell she's a woman, and I think that goes for female players as well as male. That ending to Metroid when it was revealed that Samus was a girl all along was a great statement, but it's already been done, and I think we can move on.

It doesn't have to be "sexy" just because you can tell it's a woman inside the steel plates.

I think this is one of those points where I'd praise anybody who does it like in the space marine picture you posted, but not go so far as to chide those who do it like Kingdoms of Amalur. As long as it covers everything it should cover.
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AEmer
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by AEmer »

@ Jetset
So what about gilded armors. Armors supposed to show how wealthy you are. Presumably, if you owned one of those during a tournament, you'd be more lucky with the ladies afterwards.

Why is it so hard to imagine a girl wanting more luck with the men after fighting in a tournament and therefore putting breast globes on her full plate?
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Re: What are you playing?

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AEmer wrote:Why is it so hard to imagine a girl wanting more luck with the men after fighting in a tournament and therefore putting breast globes on her full plate?
In fairness that is entirely besides the point. We're talking about armour that will keep you alive in combat, not armour that will help you get laid.
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DDL
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by DDL »

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A retarded ass divot in the center to attract incoming attacks and damage to a singular point! Oh those stupid, stupid romans. No wonder they never had much success...

8-[

I have to say, this conversation has gone very weird, but then this was already a weirdly-specific objection to a minor point that I almost certainly wouldn't've noticed (and indeed, didn't even notice when I was specifically looking for it). It's certainly the oddest all-male discussion about tits I've ever been involved in.

So out of curiosity, does mass effect fall into the same trap? Dragon Age?

And regarding that picture you posted, the female armour is better in basically every respect if we're being super-practical (apparently we are?). The centrally curved chestpiece deflects fire to the sides (the male equivalent is less effective at this), it has forearm armour (the male equivalent does not), thigh armour (ditto) and it features an actual groin plate, rather than...fatigues. If I was that man, I'd be killing me some large ladies and stealing their stuffs. Plus she has two guns. TWO. I call favouritism.
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by AEmer »

@Jonas

I don't want men not to be turned on by breasts.
I want breasts of all sizes to be viewed as equally sexy for the purposes of actions and arguments. I want to destroy the negative stereotype that a woman who happens to have large breasts is a bimbo or a slut unless she wears a sweater.

I'm arguing against the direct attack on specific breast size because it inadvertently says that breast size matters, and that it is ok to view breast sizes of certain types in a certain especially sexual way.

If you made the argument, there are too many large breasts in this game, and it is therefore pandering to a certain audience, but then added something to the effect of, not that large breasts should be objectifying, and it is wrong that they currently are objectifying, but one thing at a time...then I'd probably be happy, because then at least you're trying to prevent any reinforcement of the perception of large breasts as particularly lewd.
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by AEmer »

Jonas wrote:
AEmer wrote:Why is it so hard to imagine a girl wanting more luck with the men after fighting in a tournament and therefore putting breast globes on her full plate?
In fairness that is entirely besides the point. We're talking about armour that will keep you alive in combat, not armour that will help you get laid.
He said he'd never accept it as ok. I've been unable to get him to consider the fashion argument in any way (even though armour was all about fashion), so I decided I'd have to get him on a technicality first to even open up that avenue of discussion.
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Re: What are you playing?

Post by AEmer »

@DDL
I have to say, this conversation has gone very weird, but then this was already a weirdly-specific objection to a minor point that I almost certainly wouldn't've noticed (and indeed, didn't even notice when I was specifically looking for it). It's certainly the oddest all-male discussion about tits I've ever been involved in.
I saw a chance to discuss breasts and I didn't think twice before taking it. I distinctly remember thinking "there's no way this isn't going to be fun". Weird or not, I don't think I was wrong.
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