Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain dead

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Hashi
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Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain dead

Post by Hashi »

What are your thoughts in this situation?

This is the original thread I saw this in:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/ ... tive-state

Link:
http://patdollard.com/2012/02/dashcam-v ... rain-dead/

Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2L85M28 ... r_embedded

While reading the comments on the escapist forum, I was appalled by the amount of people who said she deserved it. While she was high on drugs and indeed it was a stupid thing to do, how the fuck can it be said she deserved it? To me that kind of thinking is very low, and leads you down a slipperly slope. People seem to be insinuating that because she had prior convictions and was high on drugs that she somehow deserved this fate. While we're judging the value of people's lives, why stop there? You could easily say that a drug user who dies deserved his death. Anyone who commits a crime or is otherwise seen as a "lowlife" can deserve these fates.

I don't debate that what she did was stupid and she might not have been a nice person, but to say that she deserved this fate based on her character is incredibly low and doesn't showcase much intelligence.

Surely I can't be the only person who thinks like this. What are other people's thoughts on the matter?
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by nerdenstein »

I agree with you, no one deserves something like this. For having a drug addiction, she needs help, not prosecution.
If the reason she was tasered was because she was causing harm to others for example, then tasering would be more justified but I wouldn't go as far as to agree to death.
I wouldn't ever agree to condemning someone to death, no matter the crime. (But then, I'm sure if the crime affected me in some way, I would feel a little differently. But in level headed circumstances, I would say that no one deserves to die and many can be reconciled.)
Now that this girl is brain dead, she's suffering a fate worst than death and I feel so sorry for her. Going against what I just said, the kindest thing to do (with Family consent as she can't give her own) would be euthanasia; which is something I do sort of agree but can see both sides to the argument.
That does depend on how 'Brain dead' she really is though.
There are so many variables that could affect whether I would agree to euthanasia in this case or not. Note, I haven't read the article. I just thought I'd offer my two pennies worth.

I haven't been on the Escapist website but I can imagine half the fan base being an extremely cocky bunch. And it's mainly because of the anonymous side to it; I suspect half of them wouldn't say a word if it were in real life.
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gamer0004
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by gamer0004 »

Tasers are so f***** up, and yet there are many people defending them. Tasers are great if they are used instead of a gun, but in most cases, tasers are used by lazy cops who don't want to take the effort to get hold of somebody. Since the introduction in the US police corps tasers have led to the death of 500 people. And now one braindead girl. It's disgusting.
And then there are some people saying "it's not their job to go running after suspects." Yes, yes it fucking is if the alternative involves a weapon which can be lethal.

Also, I'm shocked by some reactions over at escapistmagazine. She deserves to be brain dead? Unbelievable.
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

Yup. He shouldn't have used a weapon to stop someone from running away.
But he probably didn't do anything wrong. The issue here is that whoever instated the tazering policy, if it was in fact followed, caused a manslaughter.

Whether it was a commitee or not, either the people instating the policy, or the cop, should have manslaughter charges brought on them.

I get that cops need to have tools to do their job, and I think maybe they don't get enough training and compensation for the job they do, but we must be able to rely on them never using those tools in a nonpermitted fashion, and if they do, they need to be punished under normal criminal proceedings.

These situations where coppers make up harmful solutions to problems on the spot, and then decide to put them into effect rather than allowing the suspects to go free...it sickens me.

So what if that girl gets away because he can't chase her down? Nomatter how you look at it, she's a low security risk, and the enforcement is already doing its job by seizing all her assets. It's not worth risking her life to bring her in.

Of course, tackling her could've just as well resulted in brain damage, and that was probably the alternative, but honestly, where's a cuffed drug addicted girl going to go? Just wait till you can bring her in, in a reasonably safe fashion.
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by VectorM »

The U.S. is pretty much a police state already. Cops do outrageous things every single day, and most of the time the police depertment doesn't even respond, let alone fire them. Hell, there was even this one case, where one guy was denied the opportinity to become a cop, becasue, get this, HIS IQ WAS TOO HIGH. I am not making that up, google it.

In other news, I hate cops. Most of the time they are either useless, incompetent, or like in cases like this, damn near dangerous.
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

As video recording becomes more pervasive, reports of this type of behaviour will only increase. I must admit that, even though I trust the police in Denmark and their commonly hands off approach to policing, I would like to be able to record things for my protection.

It annoys me that I cannot maintain a private record of the things I see and do, not because I expect to be mistreated, but because I have so little recourse if I am mistreated.

So, as any other nerd, I want myself a pair of zioneyez: http://www.zioneyez.com/#/about/
With those, you could livestream video to the internet at the press of a button, and have it backed up somewhere safe, and that's all sorts of cool.
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by nerdenstein »

I have heard awful things about the US police force. I'm sure it isn't all like that but the bad overwrite the good.

Here in the UK, it's completely opposite. People get away with everything, and Police have very little power and authority. If an officer makes even the smallest 'mistake', and he's can be given a worst sentence than a criminal. I guess that could be seen as good, as it does stop incidences such as this one but you just have to look at the UK riots 6 months ago; All they had was Riot Shields. I don't think they were allowed Batons or any form of crowd control.
There have been cases where criminals have been let go without charge because the offender has claimed the Officer was being racist just as another smaller example. I'm sure there was more too it but unfortunately, there are ways around any system.
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

You describe riot police having only shields as a problem, but I actually think it's the right way to go. I think pepper spray would probably be good too, and I don't have anything against batons or tazers in that circumstance - except that coppers having them very often leads to police brutality.

I honestly don't have a big problem with rioters. If a rioting mob was approaching a group of trapped schoolchildren, sure, then I think the police should intervene, but generally, I don't think beating down rioting mobs is worth it. Instead, shoot them with paintball guns, set up wireless cctv cameras all around the riot using cameras inside goob and a launcher, and when the mob starts to disperse, capture 5-10% for identification. You're bound to be able to charge a lot of these people based on the spatter pattern on their clothes, and anybody who's stuck around after a dispersion order has been given should be fined a reasonable amount, 500 quid or a week in jail, and let that be that.

You don't have to resort to physical violence; in fact, so long as lives aren't at stake, a riot should be allowed to run amok so the rioters can be picked up later and charged.

Protesters are another matter entirely; they're usually easy to identify, so if they do anything illegal, simply make sure to catch it on camera, pick them up, and charge them. See how they like it when they're fined and a repo man comes around to pick up their stuff, or they pay the dues.
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Jonas
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by Jonas »

AEmer wrote:You don't have to resort to physical violence; in fact, so long as lives aren't at stake, a riot should be allowed to run amok so the rioters can be picked up later and charged.
This is key, I think. I get that having your shit destroyed or stolen is typically experienced as a huge violation and can have enormous negative consequences on your life, and I get that letting rioters go free with no penalty hurts our collective sense of justice, but it ultimately comes down to this: the value of a bunch of shit versus the value of a human life.

The same dichotomy comes up whenever you talk about home defence in an American forum: if a thief breaks into your house, it should be your right to shoot him dead. As a humanist, I reject the notion that you have a right to take another person's life to avoid losing some of your stuff. It's just stuff, its value cannot be compared against the life of a human being. If my apartment was broken into and I had a weapon at hand, would I use it to defend myself? I'd probably give it a shot! Pun intended. But that's why I'm not allowed to have a firearm in my house, because fear drives you to do crazy shit.

I'm sorry if that was too far off topic, but I just think we as human beings or at least members of western society have come to put far too much value on material goods. Hey, I'm as much of a materialist as any of you, I like to buy expensive things to play with, but none of my possessions are worth killing somebody to keep.

Except maybe my PC harddisk.

Where's ZeroPresence, I wonder? He can always be counted on to defend the plight of cops, and I think there's plenty of room for that here - I don't think the cop himself can be fully blamed, I think he found himself in a shitty situation and he made a poor decision, but I'd like to get the opposite perspective, so long as it extends beyond "bitch had it coming."
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AEmer
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

Well, I think he was just following policy; people get tazed all the time.
Ultimately, the tazer is a self-defense weapon. Using it against an assailant you know to be unarmed to make sure that person doesn't get away? Very wrong.

But I wouldn't lay down the blame on the individual copper, as I said, unless he had clear instructions and unequivocal education on the subject. If that was the case, I don't necessarily think he should be fired, but he should be punished for involuntary manslaughter, because that's what he comitted.

Also, for people killing others in defense of themselves or their property? Personally, I believe in all or nothing. Always run away, unless you absolutely can't. In that case, anything goes.

This is typically in line with the laws on self defense by untrained people; if someone with no training ends up stabbing an assailant to death because they were intimidating, and took every effort to ensure he couldn't get away, it would typically be accepted under danish law.

That's because the intention of murder is pretty clear at that point, and you certainly can't fault someone for thinking they weren't going to just be blocking the escape for a short while: The most likely reason is that you're a witness to a crime, and could put them away for a long time, and the only solution open to them is murder, so you can't be blamed for assuming that's what they're going to do.

I don't blame people for wanting weapons in their homes for precisely that reason. I don't think it makes anybody safe, but I think that it should be up to each individual if they choose to have some sort of defensive weapon in their home, under the restriction that it should be strictly controlled (like a motor vehicle).
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by Jonas »

The problem is that's not the situation you get in 99% of home entry cases in countries with civilized gun laws. You don't get some guy breaking into your house to kill you and rape your wife, you get thieves breaking in to steal your shit because they think/hope that nobody's home. And yeah it's scary, but it's a whole lot less scary if almost nobody in the country has access to firearms. Friend of mine used to rent the basement of somebody's house and woke up one summer night to a couple of guys trying to pry open a window. He grabbed a knife from the kitchen and ripped apart the curtains, shouting "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?!" They dropped their flashlight and ran the fuck away. Free flashlight for my friend, and nobody got shot because nobody except top-tier hardass criminals have access to proper weapons in this country. In many American homes (and probably lots of Eastern European ones, too), somebody would've lost their life in that situation, and that just isn't right.
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AEmer
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

That's not actually accurate. Anybody can join Hjemmeværnet and gain access to weaponry; primarily light combat rifles and non-concealable weapons, of course. And hunters can buy shotguns, no sweat. Both robbers and homeowners have access to weapons, and 1 in 100 homes in Denmark _will_ have a firearm tucked away somewhere.

The reason people skitter away if they're breaking in is not because people are toting kitchen knives. I mean, sure, a knife is scary, but we punish robbery 10 times as hard as thievery, and thievery has a much smaller risk of getting the perpetrators caught.

The thieves in question had already agreed that if someone was home, they'd run away, that's the most likely scenario. That they dropped the flashlight may even have been on purpose - rather than fiddling with it to turn it off, dropping whatever and cheesing it is the appropriate tactic.
On the other hand, if someone is there to _rob_ you, they're going to be armed with handguns or firearms, and they're fairly likely to shoot you dead: If they have unmarked weapons and silencers, they can't be traced, so risking murder charges is much safer than risking robbery charges and leaving a witness.

That's the point where a kitchen knife doesn't suffice, and I think letting people keep a tazer, or a handgun with rubber bullets, or even installing a remote-controlled teargas system is perfectly alright. I also think swords, combat knives, and other hand-to-hand weapons are fine.

And if someone feels comfortable keeping a loaded revolver in a combination lock safe, I think that's ultimately a choice they should be free to make.

Anyway, in that situation, noone would've lost their lives here - Your friend would've grabbed his gunholster and put it on from his safe, he would've gone to announce his pressence, and then...he would've run away, letting the thieves have at his belongings, being fully aware that this is the correct course of action. If they were intent on robbing him, that is, extorting his pin number and nicking his credit card, he would've run into them as he was making his escape, and they would be approaching him, they would be cutting off any means of escape, and they would be armed. Then he would have shot them.

If he didn't want to gamble on his ability to remain calm under duress, if he thought he would risk killing someone unnecessarily, he could just not get a lethal weapon. He could get a tazer, or a tear gas grenades and a gas mask. Or a quarterstaff. Or nothing at all.

Nomatter how I look at it, though, I think it's fair to leave the choice to the individual, rather than having fearful people simply get illegal weapons.
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by VectorM »

Norway, Sweeden and Finland are in the top 10 list of number of guns per capita. In the WORLD. Do they have "uncivilized" gun laws as well?

Also, Switzerland is number 1 in Europe in that statistic. And their overall homicide rate is less than that of Denmark and you guys have twise the rate of non-firearm homicides.
Last edited by VectorM on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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VectorM
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by VectorM »

You don't get some guy breaking into your house to kill you and rape your wife, you get thieves breaking in to steal your shit because they think/hope that nobody's home
Neither do you get people pointing guns at intruders with the intent to kill them. It goes both ways, you know.
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by gamer0004 »

VectorM wrote:Norway, Sweeden and Finland are in the top 10 list of number of guns per capita. In the WORLD. Do they have "uncivilized" gun laws as well?

Also, Switzerland is number 1 in Europe in that statistic. And their overall homicide rate is less than that of Denmark and you guys have twise the rate of non-firearm homicides.
I guess the difference here is culture and income distribution. Switzerland has a lot of rich people, small income disparities and no major social problems (like institutionalized racism). The US has many poor (even desperate) people, ghettos and a culture which considers killing thieves entirely normal. Gun laws can influence such culture, but it doesn't have to.

Guns don't kill people, Americans do :teeth:
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