Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain dead

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AEmer
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

I'm not acting as if you brought protesting up. I'm acting as if that's what we've been talking about the whole time:
The first night of rioting took place on 7 August 2011 after a peaceful protest in Tottenham, following the death of Mark Duggan, a local man from the area, who was shot dead by police on 4 August 2011.[12] Police failed to notify Duggan's family of his death and no senior police officer was available to meet the protest, creating anger at perceived disrespect. The immediate spark for violence was when large numbers of police arrived to disperse the demonstration and a 16-year old girl, who police claim was brandishing a bottle, was pushed and allegedly punched by several officers. Several clashes with police, along with the damage of police vehicles, magistrates' court, a double-decker bus, homes and businesses, began gaining attention from the media. Overnight, looting took place in Tottenham Hale Retail Park and nearby Wood Green.
The first night of rioting took place on 7 August 2011 after a peaceful protest in Tottenham, following the death of Mark Duggan, a local man from the area, who was shot dead by police on 4 August 2011.[12] Police failed to notify Duggan's family of his death and no senior police officer was available to meet the protest, creating anger at perceived disrespect. The immediate spark for violence was when large numbers of police arrived to disperse the demonstration and a 16-year old girl, who police claim was brandishing a bottle, was pushed and allegedly punched by several officers. Several clashes with police, along with the damage of police vehicles, magistrates' court, a double-decker bus, homes and businesses, began gaining attention from the media. Overnight, looting took place in Tottenham Hale Retail Park and nearby Wood Green.
As you can see, a protest turned into a riot. Which means, protesters showed up to protest, and before they left, they were rioters.

There's no official declaration of martial law, no curfew, none of this is established in the timeline I'm looking at here. The riots are riots because criminal youths burned down a post office, threw rocks at busses and police cars, and robbed a couple of supermarkets while police were too busy to respond. They're riots because of increasing frequency and severity of ordinary street crime.

But an illegal protest that doesn't disperse when ordered to is just another type of streetcrime. In other words, an illegal sit down strike is just another riot, in the eyes of the law.

Anyway, because no curfews or martial laws were declared during the british riots, people still had every right to the same protections as normal. One of those rights? Not getting assaulted by police officers.

One of the kids that got assaulted by police officers in the video you linked appeared to hop off his bike and talk to them, whereupon he was rushed and beaten up with clubs. It appeared they let him go afterwards, rather than detain him, making the entire thing completely useless.

I don't find that kind of crime - the one perpetrated by the police officers in that video - hillarious. I find it unsafe and dangerous, and I find that it grossly oversteps the authority with which police is allowed to act in that situation.

I'm not blaming the individual coppers - I understand why they do it and how threatened and powerless they feel - I blame the politicians and media who put them in that position in the first place, who haven't provided them with the investigative tools to identify, fine and possibly detain these individuals...And I blame those who think it's ok for something like this to happen, because they're the root cause of why it does happen. Public acceptance of the police response, public acceptance of the methods used, is ultimately the reason they're used.
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DaveW
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by DaveW »

Yes, you were, because after my post referring to the London riots last year you replied with a video of the G20 protests.

On the subject on the London riots, I disagree with the premise that the riots were a form of protest. The rioters were opportunistic criminals who thought they could get some free stuff while the police were otherwise occupied. Every attempt I've seen to read further into it is flawed. I mean, it all started because some idiot thought it was a good idea to wave a gun at police - so the entire basis of the protest was stupid for a start. Someone being shot because they're waving a gun around? Whatever next.

And clearly I am only referring to real rioters, not those who are staging illegal protests and are classed as 'rioters' by police (if that is how they're classified, which I very much doubt.) And so in those cases, I frankly couldn't care less if they get attacked by police - I'd rather they were arrested and charged or not rioting at all, but a light bit of violence is amusing.
AEmer
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

During the G20 protests, police were all dressed up in riot uniforms, and it was riot policement who manslaughtered the guy I linked. But I didn't link him because that's what I thought you meant.

I linked him because I felt it was relevant.

And in the video you linked has a bicyclist being assaulted by police officers, a bicyclist who is pushed to the ground in exactly the same way as the man who died. He wasn't threatening, and he didn't pose any kind of security risk.

He probably didn't die as a result of the beating, unlike the person I linked, because he was young and in better health, but it's the same fucking bullshit. He didn't appear to be a part of a riot as they assaulted him, and they clearly didn't have anything substantial on him.

And you laugh at that?
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DaveW
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by DaveW »

I was going to write a proper reply, but I'll just say yes. I find rioters being thrown off their bikes as they try to escape amusing.
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

I shouldn't have to do this...

The guy has clearly stopped being a flight risk at the point where he halts his bicycle and starts getting off. When he's dropped his bike, the officer doesn't care. When the guy realizes the baton is raised, he raises his arms, but he's bull rushed, beat down, and the riot shield is forced on him. Then a second officer joins in, and the two officers repeatedly swing their batons and shields at him. They appear to stomp on him as well. While he's down, and not a flight risk, and he's already pacified.

This is assault with a blunt weapon, and it would have been manslaughter if that first shield punch had landed on the victims throat. It's not policework; it's a crime.
His bicycle is still on the ground at the end of the video; he was forced off the road, to the side, by a third officer.

But I'm sure you find that positively hillarious.
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DaveW
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by DaveW »

Had he been killed or seriously injured it wouldn't be funny. It's only funny because I know he wasn't.

Also, me finding it funny doesn't mean I think it's morally right - I don't think police work should be conducted like this. I just don't care if they do it to a rioter.
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

Wellp, in that case I have nothing more to add. I can't exactly argue that you should be less heartless, and if we're in agreement that what they're up to is wrong, then that's that.
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by Hashi »

The thread has ended just the way it should: no one changing their opinions and returning to the status quo
AEmer
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

That's cynical.

First of all, I have learned that there aren't enough distinct DNA markers in the blood that you could use a one-way hashed database of them to uniquely identify very many people.

Secondly, Dave explained that he felt police violence of the kind showed in the videoes was wrong, which may have perhaps been a clarification of something he meant all along, but all the same the primary object of the discussion was resolved, and the main disagreement there was resolved.

Thirdly, we parttook in a discussion of police and police methods without things turning into "omg pigs americas largest streetgang officers are scumbags" territory. Understanding of the police problem was had all around.
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DaveW
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by DaveW »

AEmer wrote:Secondly, Dave explained that he felt police violence of the kind showed in the videoes was wrong, which may have perhaps been a clarification of something he meant all along, but all the same the primary object of the discussion was resolved, and the main disagreement there was resolved.
In reference to the main video, I wouldn't necessarily call it "wrong", just that I'd prefer it didn't happen - I only make that distinction in case people think I'm saying it's wrong for the cop to do it. I don't think he was wrong to do it, in the situation I think what he did was right. What's wrong is that the situation existed that he had to do it - but the girl is equally at fault for that.

But in the case of the rioters, I don't advocate violence. In a similar vein I'm generally against the death penalty, because murder isn't an appropriate response to murder - but that said, I find it hard to care about someone who is a murderer getting killed. The biggest problem with the death penalty for me is wrongful conviction, but that's another topic entirely. Basically, finding it funny to see a rioter get beaten up (because, and only because, it's a rioter) doesn't mean I endorse it - just means I don't care :)

I'm also a vegan..so make what you will of my wacky moral compass.
Last edited by DaveW on Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AEmer
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

Well, yeah, it's...it's a wrong act, not a wrong decision on the part of the officer, necessarily.
The result of everything leading up to the point is something which is wrong.

Does that sound about right?

Anyway, I actually find the biggest problem of the death penalty is that it's a harsh punishment.
Harsh punishments are just...messed up all around.

Imagine if a person does something and it looks like he has murdered someone. Now the law has incentivised him to murder all the witnesses because he'll get killed if he's discovered.

That's just an insane kind of messed up.

It scales down to 'lesser' crimes like rape and assault too. Punish those too harshly, and the rapist or assailant will just kill the victim.

Harsh punishments may seem right, but in the end, many of them just get people unnecessarily killed.
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DaveW
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by DaveW »

AEmer wrote:Well, yeah, it's...it's a wrong act, not a wrong decision on the part of the officer, necessarily.
The result of everything leading up to the point is something which is wrong.

Does that sound about right?

Anyway, I actually find the biggest problem of the death penalty is that it's a harsh punishment.
Harsh punishments are just...messed up all around.

Imagine if a person does something and it looks like he has murdered someone. Now the law has incentivised him to murder all the witnesses because he'll get killed if he's discovered.

That's just an insane kind of messed up.

It scales down to 'lesser' crimes like rape and assault too. Punish those too harshly, and the rapist or assailant will just kill the victim.

Harsh punishments may seem right, but in the end, many of them just get people unnecessarily killed.
Yeah I'd agree with both things.

Plus harsh punishments don't work as a deterrent because a lot of crimes aren't pre-meditated, and of those that are, they're committed by people who don't think they'll be caught. Neither of which will be bothered by the prospect of a long prison sentence (or even death) because they either don't care or think it won't apply to them. Of course being too lenient causes it's own problems with people doing stuff because they know they can get away with it (i.e. English law) but clearly a middle ground is best and the death penalty certainly isn't that.
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gamer0004
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by gamer0004 »

The reason for harsh punishments is often something like that. In some cases, like fines, it kind of works. If you have to buy a ticket for a parking lot or train and the chance of getting caught if you don't is 10%, then the fine needs to be 10 times higher than the price of a ticket or it is cheaper to never buy a ticket. What's stupid is that here in the Netherlands, fines can easily be 10 times higher but the chance of getting caught is also very high, because the cops here spend a lot of time fining people (not their fault, the system is really messed up). The result is that most people pay, but some people forget and they have to pay an extremely high fine. People aren't happy about that.
For big crimes, however, compensating a low chance of getting caught by making the punishment more severe doesn't work. Most people who commit the really bad crimes are risk 'loving' (the opposite of risk averse). So it doesn't really matter how harsh the punishment is, they care mostly about the chance of getting caught. Which is extremely low in the Netherlands. However, because crime rates were also very low politicians could pretend all was well, but that was rather the result of our pretty well functioning welfare state. Now people are coming from Eastern Europe breaking into peoples homes (sometimes with a lot of violence) and the police can't handle them. The result is xenophobia and political parties insulting other European countries and governments because there are criminals in those countries and they are currently shopping in the Netherlands because our judicial system is fucked up.

About the judicial system: I don't know who it was who said that, but I agree with the notion that the police should not be seen as an independent force. The whole judicial system needs to work. If police cannot solve crimes then judges can't do their job. If there is a first offender, judges here have no way to determine whether it is someone who has committed dozens of crimes or is actually a pretty decent person who made a big mistake and would never do commit a crime again. The result is that people who commit many crimes often escape with low punishments when they finally get caught, which further pisses people off, which results in even harsher punishments for those of whom judges think are the really bad criminals.
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by DDL »

AEmer wrote: First of all, I have learned that there aren't enough distinct DNA markers in the blood that you could use a one-way hashed database of them to uniquely identify very many people.
Technically it's "science isn't good enough to reliably identify unique people in a HUGE dataset from a given blood sample, unless you're willing to dedicate a stupid amount of time and money."

It's POSSIBLE, but not in any shape or form 'plausible'. Even with the sequencing speed we're looking at now, you'd need weeks for a concrete match, and millions of man hours for establishing the dataset in the first place...and it would still be (theoretically) contestable.
AEmer
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Re: Cop tasers a girl, who then falls and who is now brain d

Post by AEmer »

Well, computing speeds and information connectivity will almost certainly keep advancing at the pace outlined by moores law.

The pricing issue on that side of it is only a matter of time; in 20 years, sequencing an individuals entire genome probably won't be an undertaking worth fretting over.

It's the menial labor on the part of the biotech workers doing the analysis, and the number of unique DNA markers you'd need to get a reasonable resolution that really hinder the possibility of a workable system....

....And a more workable alternative may be helicopter drones following people who commit lesser crimes in order to establish their identity.

@ Gamer

I actually really like fines. I particularly like fines that don't go on peoples public records.
Prison works for violent crimes against fellow citizens, though I like permanent surveilance significantly more as a punishment there also...but I generally like punishments that leave people with their dignity intact and no worse when it comes to seeking employment.

In general, one of the best prison systems in the world is the norwegian one, in terms of people falling back into crime, and it could almost be described as a silk-gloved approach.
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