If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT games.

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If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT games.

Post by Paul1290 »

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/355 ... al-shooter

It's a kickstarter for a hardcore tactical shooter, specifically a room-to-room CQB style tactical shooter a lot like the earlier Rainbow Six 1, 2, and 3, and SWAT 3 and 4.

It's from a former Rainbow Six modder and developer who worked on Ghost Recon 2.

Just though some people here might be interested.
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

Wow he actually has the nerve to ask the community to build the game for him as well as take their money.. lol

Sorry last time I checked this was a for-profit industry.

I also don't like the idea of a AAA dev working on a non-AAA budget, he may have gotten used to not having any major budget limitations- which in terms of Risk Management would scare the shit out of me. I wouldn't trust this guy because its highly likely he'll burn out his capital- then be forced to ask for more injections. (Which some devs have already started doing- Double Dipping is not cool! Community Funding is only something you should do once- and even then should only be done in an emergency, given its pretty much your get out of jail free card should you run out of money).

Just because you like the genre he's working in doesn't mean you should throw money at him. Heck I even said the same about Schafer. The very least have a bloody product before you ask for peoples money- stop asking for it in pre-production ffs. Asking for assets for free however is definately a new low, especially for a AAA. (Orion asked for assets, but they promised to pay those people... which they never did).

This has to be very tightly regulated- too many people are jumping on this like its a godsend but I've yet to see any Indies whatso ever use the system and be sucessful with it.. Not even Tim Schafer has been successful, he just got a bunch of money, his project ain't done yet.. and as he said, if he did fail at least there will be a video of his disasterious failure for all to see. But still.. too many greedy people jumped on Kickstarter immediately to cash in on Schafer's success- these people don't deserve a cent IMO. Very least, start work on your game, get a prototype up, THEN you can ask for funds. If you're still in pre-prod.. then you're a fucking idiot and shouldn't be even on the internet doing PR.

For a AAA I'm disapointed in his pitch- it has no production value, no information whatso ever into the design of the game, no assets, nothing. Does this deserve money? NOPE. At least Schafer knew the importance of presentation.

I'm really concerned with Wasteland 2 as well.. Given that most hardcore RPGers are investing into it, they're going to have an immediate sense of entitlement over design discussions, and will immediately try to force their own design thinking on the project (which will come down to a pissing contest of "Who paid the most is more entitled") I can definately see that ending very badly in time- especially if Fargo does something contraversial.. (which come on its Fargo... he will.. you know it.) My biggest concern with Wasteland 2 is that it'll end up a commercial failure and as a result really nail the coffin of TB-RPGs and pour cement over the top to ensure no one ever tries to revive that kind of RPG ever again.

Kickstarter is not a proven system, no one has used it effectively yet.. you're putting a lot of faith into a system that hasn't been properly tested yet and no one seems to be weighing up the risks of failure (which should be a bloody essential instinct for anyone "Investing" into something).

Sorry this whole kickstarter thing is really getting out of hand. My own policy is that I will only ever touch such systems if I desperately had to, the old ways worked fine just as long as you didn't go near a publisher, nothing has changed, we can still do things like that, we just have the luxury should things turn out to go bad, to use such systems as a bit of financial help to get things moving again. Reminder, its Capital Injection, Not Capital Generation, you are injecting capital into the project, not creating capital to begin a project. Thats where I think people have the whole thing wrong.
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by VectorM »

Cut the holier-than-though attitude already.

Especially since you just suggested, that what happens here needs to be controlled with violence. "Oh noez, a voluntary transaction I don't agree with, the most moral thing to do is to send the cops after them!"

Grow up.
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by EER »

It's a decision everyone should make for themselves, but I will not invest in this project because his whole pitch does not have any details, project plan or anything to rationally make an investment decision. Also he misspells 'Tim Schaffer', so how can I invest in a project led by someone who cannot even spell a name right?

The reason I did support Tim Schafer with his lack of details, project plan or rational arguments is that he is making an adventure game and has a track record of good (or at least interesting) games. I have never heard of this guy before and he is not making an adventure game, or a game in a genre that hasn't seen any high-profile games published in the last decade, maybe when he churns out a couple indie games first with his 'indie studio' I'll reconsider supporting him.

That said, if anyone wants to throw money at this guy, be my guest.
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by bobby 55 »

EER wrote: I will not invest in this project because his whole pitch does not have any details, project plan or anything to rationally make an investment decision.
Agreed, and I don't mind shooters. I think this would be like throwing $20 bucks on a roulette table, you might get lucky but there's no certainty.
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by DDL »

The "hardcore tactical shooter" genre is a pretty niche market, so possibly this is the best/only realistic way to get this done. Not my cup of tea, obviously: I'm much happier discussing the hilarious pseudoscience of the mass effect universe than I am arguing over exactly how much plasterboard wall-penetrance a particular calibre of FMJ ammo should have, factoring in reductions in muzzle velocity due to modded tactical barrel rifling and flash suppressor*.

Thus, I agree that Mr_CP is jumping the gun ever so slightly...but we shall see. The whole kickstarter thing is super-new and untested ANYWAY, so saying "utterly untested project X is ambitious, but utterly untested project Y is HOLY FUCK HOW DARE THEY" seems a bit judgemental.


*incidentally, the answer is "just enough to be hilarious". This is, in fact, always the answer.
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

The entire point I'm stressing is that these transactions at some stage are going to be treated as Impulse purchases, and even right now people are treating them as such. Just because someone on a forum sends you a link doesn't mean immediately you should throw money at it. No offense to Paul 1290, I know why he's shared it and thanks for bringing the project to our attention.
I think this would be like throwing $20 bucks on a roulette table, you might get lucky but there's no certainty.
Exactly my point, we need to change that instead to a point of sale, mutual exchange- you buy a product, it is delivered to you right then and there.. you're just paying for them to support the game until they deem it "released". Right now its like "Hey give me $20" "Ok... you're going to make a game right?" "what... oh yeah.. maybe" "maybe?!" "well... it might happen" that's really how I see it.. its not a case of "Here's $20.." "YES SIR I WILL MAKE THIS GAME EXACTLY TO YOUR SPECIFICATIONS!" like some people are making it out to be.

Community funding may in fact be the future of our industry, this is why I take it so seriously, and I believe a lot of people should as well. Think about what you're doing before you hit that payment button. Understand the risks.
"utterly untested project X is ambitious, but utterly untested project Y is HOLY FUCK HOW DARE THEY" seems a bit judgemental.
I'll be a naysayer till they give me a reason to shut up ;). Point is, his pitch is terrible. If they're going to do a pitch, they should be doing it at the standard they'd expect the industry to expect- as in, if I was going to EA or Activision how would I convince them to support my project. Seeing a "AAA" developer pitch like he's doing a VLOG doesn't convince me he knows what he's doing.. Rather makes me question why he left the AAA studio in the first place. I shouldn't be thinking that, I should be thinking "Do I want to invest in this guys work (Y/N)" not "Why is this guy suddenly an indie?".. point is, even being ex-AAA you can still produce shit if your budget is too tight- his reputation alone is not enough to convince me. Yet the pitch is entirely that.. he's selling his reputation.. Tim Schafer did this too.. I don't approve of this.. sell the work, not yourself.

If its a good project, I shouldn't be able to express doubt (or rather have difficulties expressing doubt). This is a sign of a good pitch.
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by Jonas »

DDL wrote:wall-penetrance
Been doing genetics lately, Doctor? :mrgreen:
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by Jetsetlemming »

I played the Halo Reach demo and it was awful as a shooter. Just dogshit. The space combat part was much better, except they didn't put nearly enough effort into being able to see your environment/detect enemies. Not supporting anyone who'd brag about being part of that.
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by Paul1290 »

You're entitled to your opinion and honestly I have plenty of reason to doubt this as well. I actually agree that the pitch is rather weak.

However, I think I should clarify something that seems to have been misunderstood. (granted, this probably should have been more clear on the front page)

The money going into Kickstarter for this project is NOT the total budget for the game. $200,000 is not nearly enough to fund this type of game.
In this case the purpose of the Kickstarter money is to prove to the investors/publishers that the project is worth funding. If successful then the bulk of the game's funding will come from more conventional sources, much like any other game.

Supposedly if you pledge money and the project succeeds then in this case rest of the funding for this project will come from the investor/publisher, so you won't have to worry as much about whether the contributions will be enough to fund the whole game.

If the project does not meet the goal, you get to keep your money and you don't lose anything.
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

In this case the purpose of the Kickstarter money is to prove to the investors/publishers that the project is worth funding. If successful then the bulk of the game's funding will come from more conventional sources, much like any other game.

Supposedly if you pledge money and the project succeeds then in this case rest of the funding for this project will come from the investor/publisher, so you won't have to worry as much about whether the contributions will be enough to fund the whole game.
If he's going about this like that then he doesn't need Kickstarter. His private investors should be able to do enough for him. He's gone into this way way too early IMO and it shows. I was well aware he was doing this when I made my post.

I'd argue he'd be fine without community funded injections. As I said, Community funding should be a last resort, he should only be asking for help if he's in trouble.. which he presently isn't. I'd argue he doesn't need the capital that badly else he'd have put more effort into the presentation (whereas Tim Schafer was pretty much pleading and I'd argue he didn't have any other choice given the genre, adventure games are tainted, no one will invest in them except the fans).
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by PlausibleSarge »

If this guy is smart, he will make a working, VERY SIMPLISTIC, prototype first to prove to people that he can actually do it and is on the right track
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by Jonas »

(I just noticed I posted to the wrong thread, and deleted my post. Nothing to see here, move along.)
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by DDL »

Mr_Cyberpunk wrote: If he's going about this like that then he doesn't need Kickstarter. His private investors should be able to do enough for him. He's gone into this way way too early IMO and it shows. I was well aware he was doing this when I made my post.

I'd argue he'd be fine without community funded injections. As I said, Community funding should be a last resort, he should only be asking for help if he's in trouble.. which he presently isn't. I'd argue he doesn't need the capital that badly else he'd have put more effort into the presentation (whereas Tim Schafer was pretty much pleading and I'd argue he didn't have any other choice given the genre, adventure games are tainted, no one will invest in them except the fans).
Really? I mean, "here's my pitch, throw money at me" is a fairly weak approach.

"Here's my pitch, here's 200 grand of community investment, throw money at me" is much much stronger. Not only does it demonstrate community interest, it demonstrates it in an emphatically "show me the money" way, something that, say "Here's my pitch, here's a petition signed by tons of community members, throw money at me" wouldn't do. He'd be showing that there's support from the community to the extent that they're willing to PAY to demonstrate that support.

After all, investors don't give two shits about the genre.... or hell, even the entire THING they're funding, all they care about is "money out >= money in".

It's not my cup of tea, as I said (hardcore tactical shooters are fucking awful, to my mind. The whole point of games is escapism: if I want realistically shitty gunplay I'll buy an actual gun), but I still think you shouldn't be quite so dismissive.

Plus, remember that this is the internet generation. Kickstarter-related things are super-trendy at the moment, so even if he doesn't need the actual capital, or even the support, he can drum up publicity in all kinds of ways by doing this. Possibly this is a more cynical evaluation than necessary, but hey, I'm all about the cynicism.
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Re: If you liked older Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, or SWAT gam

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

I'm all about the cynicism.
More the merrier IMO, Kickstarter at least from the role of the developer is all about Risk Management, if they can't do it.. then they're not very trustworthy. I'd just like to see for a change instead of a desperate plea for funding an actual "here's how we're going to do this within the budget set".. not so different to how the government budgets, not so different to how an annual report works with the stock exchange.. these documents exist for a reason. Just saying, If I'm investing anything, I'd still want to be convinced that my investment was a wise choice. Its still a business at the end of the day, not a charity so yeah I'd hope they have some kind of documentation on this, that they have to share with investors anyway.
Really? I mean, "here's my pitch, throw money at me" is a fairly weak approach.
My point was that at least if you have work done on it you can say "Hey there, I ran out of funds for my project, you guys pay me a bit of money to get it going again and you can have this current build, ready to go.. all yours!" that's better than "Hi, I need money, I'll get back to you in 6 months when I finally get off my ass and produce something, sincerely mr.developer". Hence why I'm saying, only use it as a last resort- its petty if you're pretty much asking the consumer to finance your game from the get go, Taleworlds did the right thing with Mount and Blade because they at least had a free playable demo at that point when they started asking for people's money- once I played the demo I threw money at them.. Notch same deal, I only paid for Minecraft because it had a demo early on.

What I keep seeing with these kickstarters is that they're trying to get money in order to even get a demo. All they've got is a design document.. I'm not going to pay you $15 for a desing document.. If I did that with everyone else on kickstarter I'd be broke fast. If everyone's doing the same thing on kickstarter, there's no way to gauge quality.. hence why I don't like the system currently- because there are a lot of terrible quality projects on there blatantly cashing in on Schafer's success. That said, there are some great projects on there too, like Code Hero for example (at least they have a working product that we can physically see, and their pitch page is very well detailed.). Just I see more Bad than Good on Kickstarter right now. And as you said, its a trend. But that said, this trend is exactly what the industry needs.. its just Kickstarter is a bad way of going about it, better systems already exist.. they're just not as popular.
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