The Israeli-Palestine Conflict

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Made in China
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The Israeli-Palestine Conflict

Post by Made in China »

Well, this is asking for trouble. None the less, it is an important topic to discuss.
The Israeli-Palestine conflict began even before the rise of Israel - circa 1918, after the fall of the Ottoman empire and the establishment of the British\French reign over the region of Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. After it all broke off in the 40's, each nation was to fend for it own - every nation established a country, except Palestine, which did not agree for the two-countries-for-two-nations solution that was agreed in the UN, and therefore its territory got taken over by Israel and Jordan.
About 3 wars later, Israel conquered the Palestinian territories back from Jordan, mainly due to their abandonment by the Jordan troops. This territory, which also includes Eastern Jerusalem, is now claimed to be Palestine, or the Conquered Territories, and its residents call for independence from Israel and acceptance of the original UN verdict.

In 1987, 2000, and starting now, there is a guerrilla warfare commenced by the Palestinians against Israeli troops and Israeli civilians, which causes many loses. Driving through a road that belongs to the Palestinians will mostly result in a Molotov Cocktails or boulders thrown at the passengers, especially if they are from the military. Those uprisings, also call Intifatha (Awakening in Arabic), are the Palestinian response to the rising tension, and due to "Muslim Brotherhood" - with the recent one being in large part due to the Pillar of Cloud operation.
On the other side, there were many "Price Tags" terrorism from Israeli extremists - when they don't agree with the army, the government or as a response to a terrorism from the other side, they will commit extreme vandalism or even murder in either Palestine or even inside Israel. Those acts are also generally frowned upon in Israel.

This conflict has spread far beyond those two states. There is a known cooperation between Iran, Syria, Hezbolla and Hamas. Hamas will also operate through Egypt and in cooperation with Bedouin lawless tribes in the area, and through Jordan - and little is done, at least from the Arab side, to stop those actions. This cooperation between Iran and terrorists groups is also relevant to the entire world, as Iran is trying to become a nuclear state - and creating a diversion in Israel lets it have a breathing room and ability to proceed with its nuclear program. This was one of the causes for escalation and the beginning of the 2006 Lebanon-Israel war.
On the other side, Israel has been cooperating with the USA, Britain, Germany, France, India and many other developed countries - and stopping the conflict will mean an economic boom for them, as they won't have to support Israel's struggle for existence. It will also mean that there will be focus on combating world-wide terrorism instead of local, Middle-Eastern terrorism, which should be more of a concern to those countries.

Now, none of the sides is absolutely guilty, nor it is absolutely innocent. Making that assumption is ridiculous - there are civilians on both sides, which range from pacifists to extremists. Taking a logical approach and civil debate, there could be an answer or at least some clarification as to what's really going on in the Middle East.
So, there is much to talk about here - from who has the right for settlement in the land to Israel's Take-Down policy vs. Palestine's civilian combat.

So... yeah. Discuss.
AEmer
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Re: The Israeli-Palestine Conflict

Post by AEmer »

I...wait..what?

Why do you want to discuss this exactly? It's a heavy geopolitical subject. Did it just spring to mind today?
Made in China
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Re: The Israeli-Palestine Conflict

Post by Made in China »

Well, I'm Israeli, and currently serve in the army. I've lived in this reality of conflict and bloodshed my entire life - and that also makes me biased against the Arabs and for Israel (of course). I cannot really participate in a debate without taking it really personally, and I can't really get another point of view - especially when I have friends who were injured because of Palestinian terrorism.
So, I tried to present the historical background of both sides and make them equal, so other people can add arguments both in favor and against both sides. Seeing how others perceive this conflict and generally who's at fault of what, may make me see things from a different angle - as long as I don't really participate and invest myself in the debate.
And because I want different point of views, I can't really point at what I want people to talk about. It can be anything - segregation in Israel, military policies, terrorism in both sides, quality of life in Israel vs. Palestine, cooperation between Israel and Palestine, etc. It's such a wide subject, as you've said, that not talking about all of these things will not do it justice. But I just can't tell people where to start.
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gamer0004
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Re: The Israeli-Palestine Conflict

Post by gamer0004 »

I'd like to say one things with regard to your text, and one thing in regard to the conflict.

The first thing is that one must be wary of seeing groups of countries as unity. Certainly, the Palestinians have allies, as does Israel. But Iran has its own agenda, and if there is extensive cooperation between Hamas and Iran, then there is likely to be a lot of conflict between the two as well, with both trying to reconcile their individual interests and their interests as a group, which often conflict. Similarly, although European countries and the US are allies of Israel, they have their own interests to defend. They don't want to risk open warfare in the Middle-East, and Israel isn't very popular among the public, at least here in the Netherlands and AFAIK that's true in Western Europe in general. It is easy to think as the Middle-East plotting to destroy Israel, but in reality it is more or less a huge clusterfuck of individual interests and goals, different political and religious groups and tribes, internal struggles and so on. Whether anyone will support an attack on Israel depends on whether these groups can benefit, which in many instances is not the case. It's the guys who benefit from an attack you should watch out for. Iran may be such a case.

The second thing regards the actions of Israel and the Palestinian state (or, rather, the lack thereof). The conflict has been going on for very long and it is for outsiders impossible to determine who is responsible for the beginning of the conflict or for prolonging it. Both sides are doing unacceptable things. But the award for "acting like the biggest dick" in my opinion goes to Israel, because it should know better.
To give an example: operation cast lead. Looking at the Wikipedia page I can't even find a single Israeli victim (except a few wounded) before the operation. It says dead Palestinian, dead Palestinian, dead Palestinian (though mostly Hamas) &c. then bam, operation Cast Lead, which "resulted in between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinian and 13 (!) Israeli deaths". More than a thousand dead as payback for rocket attacks which killed few (IIRC some people were wounded and/or killed) or none (the Wikipedia page does not state any Israeli was killed).
A modern state should know better, it should put in way more effort to prevent civilian casualties. Sure, Hamas may have used to population as protection, but that's what terrorists do! The Americans are regularly fighting terrorists, but they don't kill a thousand innocent people to get at a few terrorists (although they are arguably responsible for tens of thousands of deaths in Iraq).
Israel is a modern state, Hamas is a terrorist group in a dysfunctional... something. You can't expect the latter to fight in a fair way, but you can expect a modern state aided by the latest technology to prevent massive numbers of civilian casualties. And if it can't it should abstain from intervening. More than a thousand dead is excessive by any comparison.
In addition, the Palestinian territories are embargoed and the lives of Palestinians are made difficult because some Palestinian terrorists killed Israeli citizens. Again, I deem that excessive.

In any case, I think nobody can expect exemplary conduct by the Palestinians as long as they don't have a decent state and subsistence. Only when they do they can be held accountable, in my opinion. To me, it seems like a logical step, also because the Israelis and Palestinians don't even want to be together in one country. I understand there are good reasons for Israel not to support the Palestinians in this matter, but I think it is the "right" step, and I think it is wrong not to support doing the right thing.
Made in China
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Re: The Israeli-Palestine Conflict

Post by Made in China »

Well, I see that no one is responding. I guess that is fare - that isn't your war to fight, so why would you pay any attention to it? The other option is everyone who's read gamer004's post is agreeing with him - so I will offer a counterpoint.

Regarding seeing certain groups as unities - well, they are.
Hezbollah has risen out of Fatah, when Israel expunged it from Palestine. Settling in Lebanon, it took alliance with Syria in order to build its power, and afterwards allied themselves with Iran. Nowadays, Hezbollah has set themselves a goal of establishing an Iran-like republic in Lebanon. And I'm not making it up - this is from our very basic military interceptions.
Hamas is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood organization - the same party that is now in control of Egypt, and is responsible for many disturbances in the half-island of Sinai. They share the same ideology - the basis of which is not recognizing Israel's right to exist.
That being said, you are correct. Every group has its own agendas - mainly the concern for it's fighters and territories. But that exists in every union - the fact is that they have the same goals, and sometimes even a common leadership. The same can be said for other terrorist organizations, such as Al-Qaeda and the Shbiba, its African branch.

About your second point, you are right. Israel SHOULD know better. But it can't.
Looking at raw numbers, you can see that about once a year Israel has a major operation in Gaza, attacking thousands of targets: weapon warehouses, launch sites, smuggling tunnels and military activists. And whenever Israel strikes, there is an escalation, and Hamas also attacks. In those conflicts the number of strikes in Gaza pretty much equals the number of missiles fired toward Israel - and the fact that Israel causes more civilian casualties than Hamas doesn't seem right.
However, there are very major differences between the two. First, Hamas doesn't have guided missiles - it has rockets and mortars. They fire them generally toward cities and military installations, hoping to it something, and they mostly miss. Whenever Israel strikes, it's in Gaza. It's in the cities and their outskirts, where the launch sites are generally located. It's in the densely populated refugee camps. Civilian casualties seem inevitable.
Second, seeing the conflict as single clashes does no justice to the truth. The fact is Israel is bombarded on a daily basis with rockets and mortars, even during cease fire. They mainly reach Eshkol Regional Council and Sderot, stopping the lives of about a million people, 20% of Israel's population. And it doesn't matter if civilians are physically hurt or not - when the rocket alarm sounds, everyone has to run to the nearest bomb shelter. Their lives are a mess, which shows when most kids in those regions develop PTSD. Their economy is a mess, because no one is crazy enough to work and shop there. Their education is a mess, when 3 times a day children stop everything for the chance to live another day. These are the real damages of the conflict.

But, I won't be unfair. The life in Gaza isn't easy either - it's under siege mainly because everything that goes in there is taken to the war effort. Hamas uses fertilizers to create explosives, and road sign to create missile shells and launch tubes. It uses concrete to create underground bunkers and secured tunnels instead of houses. Hamas is making the civilian life in Gaza a living hell, because except for the most elementary supplies, they can't get anything in. This results in a major hate for Israel, viewed as the direct cause for this. Because of that, about a quarter of all the residents of Gaza are Hamas activists.
But, Hamas also creates a solution. Using smuggling tunnels, it smuggles everything from weaponry, to cars, to agricultural supplies to medical supplies. It creates both the demand and the supply. Now, those who get the supplies first are its activists - resulting in even more sympathy and the need to become a Hamas activist. And every activist is targeted by Israel - so life in Gaza becomes a game of chance, due to the tension between Hamas and Israel.

So, it's understood that Gaza residents would want to rise up and destroy Israel. But it should also be understood that if they overthrow Hamas's terrorist approach they would regain their life back.

P.S.
I got involved, so this argument is now pointless to me. As I said, I'm already biased.
AEmer
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Re: The Israeli-Palestine Conflict

Post by AEmer »

@ Made In China
You can't just pop in and expect us to argue this conflict out of the blue without some form of bias. Pretty much the only ones who are going to say something do it because you show an interest and they may be able to help, or because they have a strong oppinion on it.

The fact is, Israel is seen almost exactly as Gamer describes it: Regardless of who the perpetrators are, we blame Israel, because they are the strong, cohesive player in the region, and they have absolute hegemony.

So when there are 1400 civilians dead, that blood is seen as dripping from Israels hands. There are also many who believe that recognizing the state of Israel, as it originally was done at the establishment of Israel, was a grave injustice and a mistake.

This is not my personal oppinion. My oppinion is that I don't know. But we know the facts: Israel is a nation established within the border of another nation, and which has fought for its right to exist for the past 60 years. It is very easy to ask where the last 60 years worth of spilled blood has been worth it, and it is very hard not to hold Israel itself responsible for everything that has followed since, whether good or bad.
shadowblade34
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Re: The Israeli-Palestine Conflict

Post by shadowblade34 »

Personally, I've stayed out of it because I'm Muslim, so I'll have a bias for the Palestinians. I don't want to get in any arguments either, but I pretty much just agree with AEmer and Gamer.
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