Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Point

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VectorM
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by VectorM »

And? how does that disprove my point?

You saying there are 10million no-lifes out there then?
No. I am saying, that just like you can point me to Skyrim, to try and prove that long games sell, then I can just as easily point to much shorter games that sold MORE. Hell, across all systems, the most sold games are either relatively short, or are something like Tetris, that people will play every once in a wile to pass the time, so the 6 hour thing doesn't even apply to them at all. People don't buy Tetris, expecting to finish it.
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by DDL »

First things first: CP, nothing shadowblade said was a personal attack. Seriously, if you're going to jump the gun that badly, it might be better to just take a step back, take a deep breath, and think things through before posting.

This is not a personal attack either, it's just...advice, in a desperate attempt to avoid this thread becoming a shitstorm. Again.

Secondly, long games have their place, certainly, but honestly: how many people can say they have finished any of the later elder scrolls games? Beyond a certain point, your game gets so sprawling that the plot pretty much has to be secondary or irrelevant. Tightly-plotted games that you finish, sit back and think "aaaand...done. That was great" are generally a lot shorter than 100 hours. Or even 40 hours.

Hell, if you look at steam stats, a ridiculously large portion of people never finish games. Again, because most people genuinely cannot find the time to dedicate to that much gaming, or at the very least, cannot use the time they have to sustain interest in something long and sprawling.

And again, this is not a criticism. If you have the time to game like fucking crazy, good for you. You're lucky. Enjoy it while you can, for god's sake.
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by Cybernetic pig »

DDL: Fair enough. Guess i'm seeing covert trolls everywhere these days. :D

I finished Morrowind....well not finished as in did everything, but I gave up on secondary quests at some point and just got the main quest over & done with.
FO:NV I done mostly everything though, the only "sprawling" game I did. I was working at the time too.

Congratulations on your white name :)

And yes I am very lucky, my girlfriend is understanding of my gaming time....but I think she just gave up a long time ago :lol:
VectorM wrote: No. I am saying, that just like you can point me to Skyrim, to try and prove that long games sell, then I can just as easily point to much shorter games that sold MORE. Hell, across all systems, the most sold games are either relatively short, or are something like Tetris, that people will play every once in a wile to pass the time, so the 6 hour thing doesn't even apply to them at all. People don't buy Tetris, expecting to finish it.
But that wasn't my point, I was arguing that clearly, lots of people (with lives) make time for sprawling games. That is all.
But yes, most probably do not finish it, but I think that is most people in general, once they realise it's a poop game :lol:

Yes, no shit storms today. My bad.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DaveW
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by DaveW »

Long games have their place but not every game can or should be like that. You don't get a tight narrative in a game like Skyrim or Fallout because it would be practically impossible.

I'm glad Deus Ex was long, because I love it, but in terms of a 'sweet spot' I think HR hit it. I show 21 hours played on Steam which was 2 play-throughs doing most side-quests etc., although I knew where I was going because I'd played it twice before.
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Shame there's no SDK for Human Revolution.....
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by DDentonas »

DaveW hit the bullseye with the term "tight narrative". When you have a very long game, but a small story, you destroy the pacing of the story. sdfghksdhgkshdsghsdsSDFsDFGsdf sorry, i just remembered an example and it made me hit the keyboard with my head. Final Fantasy 10. So you get 10 minutes of story, you play for 2 hours with stuff that have nothing to do with the story and then you get another 10 minutes! The story feels thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread. It was a mistake to refer to the original DX in the previous page, when i was talking about players forgetting where the game begun, because DX has no problems with pacing. But in a 25 hour long game, things can go wrong.

This also holds true when your gameplay gets repetitive.
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by Jonas »

DDL wrote:Secondly, long games have their place, certainly, but honestly: how many people can say they have finished any of the later elder scrolls games? Beyond a certain point, your game gets so sprawling that the plot pretty much has to be secondary or irrelevant. Tightly-plotted games that you finish, sit back and think "aaaand...done. That was great" are generally a lot shorter than 100 hours. Or even 40 hours.
If I may, the point of an open-world game is not to finish it, the point is that the portion that you do experience will be an experience unique to you. Of course this is not really an excuse for The Elder Scrolls games typically having such piss weak narratives, but it's sort of an amazing thing that even despite ignoring the narrative in many of these games, you can enjoy them - you can have fun within their worlds, exploring them and picking up quests in whatever order you please. When it comes down to it, if you just follow the main questline, Skyrim probably isn't much more than 7-10 hours long anyway, particularly if you make liberal use of quicktravel - it's all the auxiliary stuff that takes up your time, and if you never complete all the optional content, that's fine.
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by DDL »

That's a fair observation. I guess my problem with the open-ended approach is that generally speaking, I would prefer to finish a game by finishing it, rather than simply "getting bored of it". I guess I'm developing an increasingly strong preference for narrative elements over free-form elements. I was going to say that I preferred the sorta mass-effecty approach of "essential main missions + optional side missions, more side missions become available upon completion of main missions", but now I'm having trouble working out why that is substantially different from what morrowind/oblivion/skyrim do.

I guess...change? Generally speaking, in a more tightly-plotted game there's more opportunity to show change over time. A main mission could be "storm the castle" during the course of which the castle burns down, and now: the castle is burned down (preventing you finishing side missions involving finding onions for the castle cook or whatever).

It remains burned down, and thus you feel like the world has significantly altered as a consequence of your interaction with it.


That and the fact that the elder scrolls approach is perhaps more "essential main missions + optional side missions, more side missions become available upon completion of main missions, also there are a fuckton of other side missions that you can do..like, whenever dude. Just go crazy till you're bored."

If I finish a game feeling perfectly satisfied (portal) or wanting more (ME3), it leaves a better memory than if I finish a game because "oh shit, yeah. That. I guess I should go back and finish that sometime."
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by Jaedar »

Was your name always white DDL?
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by YeomanTheCastle »

I swear to God it wasn't. The white must mean he's awesome as fuck.

Wish I was black.
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by CrocMagnum »

DDL wrote:...how many people can say they have finished any of the later elder scrolls games? Beyond a certain point, your game gets so sprawling that the plot pretty much has to be secondary or irrelevant. Tightly-plotted games that you finish, sit back and think "aaaand...done. That was great" are generally a lot shorter than 100 hours. Or even 40 hours.

Hell, if you look at steam stats, a ridiculously large portion of people never finish games. Again, because most people genuinely cannot find the time to dedicate to that much gaming, or at the very least, cannot use the time they have to sustain interest in something long and sprawling...
You have a point. Back in the day people took their time to finish something. Now it seems people have so many pastime (playing, reading, watching movies, music, ..Sometimes altogether :shock: ) they do not concentrate on the activity at hand. This short attention span mentality has plagued most mediums.

For instance if the first 50 pages of a book are slowpaced / terrible, not many people will finish it. Even if the book is good overall.

Furthermore the average age of gamers is arounds 30 nowadays (33 in France, 30 in the US). And when you hit the 30's life takes it toll on you. If everything goes smoothly you have a job, a partner and even kids maybe. It's very hard to devote 100 hours/month for a game, unless your a complete moron. Take that, Cybernetic pig!!...Just kidding pal, put the gun away! *mrgreen*

Maybe the shorter lifespan of recent games is aimed at selling more, but heck (try to prove that...).

---
Going back to Warren Spector (sheesh!) I have to say I'm somewhat disappointed by his 'post-Deus Ex work'. I respect him for praising The Nameless Mod though. I wish him good luck!
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Furthermore the average age of gamers is arounds 30 nowadays (33 in France, 30 in the US). And when you hit the 30's life takes it toll on you. If everything goes smoothly you have a job, a partner and even kids maybe. It's very hard to devote 100 hours/month for a game, unless your a complete moron. Take that, Cybernetic pig!!...Just kidding pal, put the gun away! *mrgreen*
I'm in my early 20's pal.
CrocMagnum wrote: For instance if the first 50 pages of a book are slowpaced / terrible, not many people will finish it. Even if the book is good overall.
So, it's ok to have time for books, but not games? =D>

On average it takes longer to read your average book than to complete your average game. And there are plenty of looooongg books out there.
Going back to Warren Spector (sheesh!) I have to say I'm somewhat disappointed by his 'post-Deus Ex work'. I respect him for praising The Nameless Mod though. I wish him good luck!
Moron! You spent time playing TNM! :P
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by shadowblade34 »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
CrocMagnum wrote: For instance if the first 50 pages of a book are slowpaced / terrible, not many people will finish it. Even if the book is good overall.
So, it's ok to have time for books, but not games? =D>

On average it takes longer to read your average book than to complete your average game. And there are plenty of looooongg books out there.
Most books take less than 10 hours to read. A really long book, Don Quixote for example, took me around 7 hours.
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Depends on the reader and the book. Some read slow, others fast.
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Re: Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Poin

Post by Jonas »

Jaedar wrote:Was your name always white DDL?
No it is a recent development.

Think of it as a test of DDL's character ;)
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