Rumour: Disney Is Closing Warren Spector’s Junction Point

[Cybernetic pig]

Ok, what about MJ12 troops taking multiple bullets to the face?

[bobby 55]

Meh, I dunno, it's ok. It's just doesn't hit the same buttons many other games do.

That's fair enough. It'd be a dull old world if we all liked the same things all the time.

[DaveW]

It's an RPG though! You start with the weak guns. Focus on gun related perks and skills, + weapon mods and misc perks gained from other means, and you can blow the head off of all lower-medium tier enemies with the 50.cal snipe in one shot on Very Hard.

Regardless of whether it's a "weak gun" (Read; weak ammo - the gun makes no difference to velocity and stopping distance) - fifty pistols rounds in the face = dead. Even an air pistol = dead in that case.

I get that RPG levelling doesn't make sense, especially in Fallout (I recall a discussion about 'Luck' inexplicably being a skill) - but that's not an excuse for clearly impossible, stupid things.

Ok, what about MJ12 troops taking multiple bullets to the face?

Standard MJ12 troops? A headshot with the rifle takes them out. Personally, I wouldn't hold up Deus Ex as a pinnacle of shooting mechanics - that award would go to HR.

[Cybernetic pig]

Regardless of whether it's a "weak gun" (Read; weak ammo - the gun makes no difference to velocity and stopping distance)

Wrong, barrel rifling.

(I recall a discussion about 'Luck' inexplicably being a skill) - but that's not an excuse for clearly impossible, stupid things.

yeah, and I tried to say how it was not a skill but an attribute: (note the quote below is from Wikipedia)

In logic, mathematics and modern philosophy a property is an attribute of an object

After witnessing a someone have a near death experience you could say "Wow, he has good luck", and that luck would be an attribute of that person, not a skill. Of course luck doesn't exist in a physical sense (or spiritual), but my point stands.

Yes, it doesn't make sense having it a modifiable attribute, but it does for gameplay reasons. And you can't knock Fallout for it. Tons of RPGs have it and it originated from tabletop RPGs if I am not mistaken.

Anyway returning to the immersion/simulation discussion- yes, Deus Ex probably wins on that front. It doesn't have the graphics or SFX but it's simulation design is arguably stronger as a whole, at least if you consider the tech/budget they had to work with at the time.
Well, we still dont know the budget of Deus Ex? Anyone know?

[DDL]

There's something inherently funny about using the phrase "I have never played such nerdy games" to apply to P&P RPGs, when you're simultaneously argung about gun mechanics in a post-apocalyptic 1950s alterna-earth. A post-apocalyptic 1950s alterna-earth that is one of your favourite games ever, no less.

Anyway, back to faceshooting. A single headshot with a pistol is enough to kill any normal human in DX. An MJ12 commando (wearing uber high tech armour) takes three, but only just: they're near death after two.

Gunther, as I said, takes like..6, but he's a giant metal robo-man.

So "random legionnaire wearing crappy cloth armour" taking 50 is...somewhat jarring. Especially since most other peeps drop after a good order of magnitude fewer.

[Jaedar]

Guys its not about realism: its pretty simple.

Legion armor has 15 DT. A shitty 10mm pistol does like 20 damage. Therefore, the legionnaire takes 5 damage per shot. Find a better weapon.

This is no different from pretty much every other rpg out there.

[Cybernetic pig]

There's something inherently funny about using the phrase "I have never played such nerdy games" to apply to P&P RPGs, when you're simultaneously argung about gun mechanics in a post-apocalyptic 1950s alterna-earth. A post-apocalyptic 1950s alterna-earth that is one of your favourite games ever, no less.

Ha ha, I am in denial.

Anyway, back to faceshooting. A single headshot with a pistol is enough to kill any normal human in DX. An MJ12 commando (wearing uber high tech armour) takes three, but only just: they're near death after two.

Gunther, as I said, takes like..6, but he's a giant metal robo-man.

So "random legionnaire wearing crappy cloth armour" taking 50 is...somewhat jarring. Especially since most other peeps drop after a good order of magnitude fewer.

Easy mode

No, I get what you are saying. You shouldn't have to put it on Very Easy for the game to behave realistically- they could have at least put more armour on the dudes, but hey, all games have their flaws.

Guys its not about realism: its pretty simple.

Legion armor has 15 DT. A shitty 10mm pistol does like 20 damage. Therefore, the legionnaire takes 5 damage per shot. Find a better weapon.

This is no different from pretty much every other rpg out there.

Still, FO:NV does have strong Immersive Sim design, so DDL is correct to complain that it pulls him out of the game.

[DaveW]

Regardless of whether it's a "weak gun" (Read; weak ammo - the gun makes no difference to velocity and stopping distance)

Wrong, barrel rifling.

Er, not wrong - barrel rifling spins the projectile to improve aerodynamics and therefore flight stability and accuracy. It does not magically impart extra velocity on the projectile.

A bullet has a fixed amount of explosive which will create a set velocity. Firing a 5.56mm round from an M16 will produce the same velocity as in a FAMAS, for example.

Guys its not about realism: its pretty simple.

Legion armor has 15 DT. A shitty 10mm pistol does like 20 damage. Therefore, the legionnaire takes 5 damage per shot. Find a better weapon.

This is no different from pretty much every other rpg out there.

You're missing the point - NV is claimed to be some immersive simulator by Cyber et al. - and a 10mm pistol taking a ridiculous amount of bullets to the face is utterly dumb and just as unrealistic as anything they're complaining about in, say, Skyrim.

Sure, it's no different to a lot of other RPG's but that doesn't render that observation moot.

[DDL]

To be honest, none of it is terribly immersive: needing to eat/drink is simply a case of "wait for the FOD/H2O prompt to come up, then eat/drink", since you're never without a fuckton of food and drinks. I usually end up eating/drinking most of my stuff purely to reduce carry weight (and there appears to be no penalty for over-indulging on water). Ammo weight is a nice touch in theory, but ammo ingredients weigh nothing...so you just carry around a fuckton of powder and shellcasings, making ammo as needed, when needed. And ammo would never be an issue anyway, if I didn't need to expend 250 rounds (along with three sticks of dynamite, five mines and all my grenades) each time I wanted to kill an unavoidable group of legionnaires.

It ends up feeling less like "hardcore" and more like "the same game but with additional minor annoyances".

Which is odd, since stalker does a lot of the same things but somehow makes it work. Stalker's more shooter and less RPG, I guess, so you don't feel quite so constrained by gamey-ness ("You do not have enough STR to open this lock!" etc).
Difficulty could be another issue: New Vegas (uber legionnaires aside) never feels threatening -unless you wander into deathclaw territory- since most threats are predicable and fairly easily managed. It's basically either "this is easy" or "this is bullshit", when what you want to be aiming for is "this is hard, but I'm just scraping by": you don't want to feel safe, but you do want to feel like it's a situation you CAN survive, provided you don't fuck up.

[Cybernetic pig]

They are all minor complaints. Except for the challenge one.
Maybe you will like my mod then, as Deus Ex vanilla gets ridiculously easy 2/5 into the game. And Isn't particularly challenging before that either as long as you use your head.

And what about VTM:B? unarmoured humans take shotgun blasts point blank, All the skill requirements etc. That game is only challenging because your character can't hit shit, even with weapons skill lvl 9.

You're nitpicking it buddy, just enjoy it

They are worthy complaints though so i'm not waving you off....

[Jaedar]

I kind of agree with you DDL, that food/water stuff never bothered me. However, ammo and healthpack weight certainly did affect me(this is maybe because I really like to have multiple weapons on me, which necessitates lots of ammo). And iirc you need to find a crafting station to make ammo from ingredients. This might also have been since I played energy weapons, and there are several of those that consume many shots per shot so to speak.

[Cybernetic pig]

Also the healing over time feature is a must for challenge.

[DDL]

Deus Ex vanilla gets ridiculously easy 2/5 into the game. And Isn't particularly challenging before that either as long as you use your head.

Ridiculously easy? I'm not sure I'd agree, since even by area 51, a single pistol round to the head will kill you instantly.

Unless you're simply sniping from miles away or just spamming augballistic, DX never stops feeling...dangerous. You start off as a fragile naive nanoaug with a basic set of augs, and finish up a fragile cynical nanoaug with lots of augs. You're still fragile at all times.

Which I like. Admittedly yes, if you did simply sit back and snipe, then you're minimising your weaknesses and are thus in for an easier ride, but otherwise...well, it still feels like something you need to take care with.

Vampire..well, I'm not entirely sure whether you're saying it's good or bad? I've never noticed the gunplay being problematic: seems like most people drop fairly quickly if you shoot them. It's just that bullets are shit against vampires, and how many of them do you fight? Well, the clue is in the name.

Finally, nitpicking? Of course. Honestly, I'm incredibly easily pleased, and will overlook a staggering number of niggles and bugs if the game grips me, but there's just...something missing in New Vegas. It's..good, but it's not OMG I MUST PLAY TILL MIDNIGHT good. I was just curious as to what about it was particularly perfect for you, given that (outside of uber legionnaires) it's not terribly challenging, and that the whole thing feels fairly...clunky.

[Cybernetic pig]

Yeah the vampires taking a shit load of bullets is acceptable, but I am talking about humans, the common boys in blue specifically.
You can use every shell in your chamber against them and they do not go down.

It's..good, but it's not OMG I MUST PLAY TILL MIDNIGHT good.

Is for me.

Well, it's not perfect of course, but for me it's DX levels of good. Not as epic as DX, but still very good.

[DDL]

Ok, I picked the point at which I felt things took a nosedive, and shifted everything from thence onward to a separate thread so that someone with slightly more chutzpah than me can decide whether to delete it or not. Because seriously, people. I know I'm bad, but...seriously.