Endgame

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Cybernetic pig
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Endgame

Post by Cybernetic pig »

http://www.develop-online.net/news/4338 ... s-in-house
"We're building into all of our games the ability to pay for things along the way, either to get to a higher level to buy a new character, to buy a truck, a gun, whatever it might be, and consumers are enjoying and embracing that way of the business."
It's not bullshit either. They do market research, obviously. EA's all-seeing eye in the gaming world. EA are a corporation only concerned with $$$. Every action taken is in the interest of profit, therefore they have analyzed and come to the conclusion that this is the way forward and that "gamers" will eat it up as usual.
We are putting up with injustices that mostly only old school gamers (the illuminated ones) have a problem with: holding back content and selling as DLC and all the rest I do not need to repeat.
Microtransactions won't be exclusive to EA alone. All the big publishers will adopt the business models of the competition, just like this generation.

What to expect next gen:
Always-on consoles.
Increase in development costs (which will result in a increase in devs appealing to a broader audience).
Closing of more smaller studios.
In-game ads.
Even less originality & more franchise abuse.
Microtransactions.
Profit????


I refuse to be pushed to the confines of the PC indie game market only. Other than that, the only big company seemingly reliable left is CDProjeckt. I cannot rely on a single console-centric dev/pub anymore either. We need to unite under the revolutionist flag of the NSF (Non-sufficient funds)!

Shame it had to turn out like this. The classics will remain eternal at least. Next gen is approaching, a new age, where greedy pretentious old men reign gods over the industry!

/Conspiracy themed novice rhetoric ending on a downer and ultimately failing in it's original purpose because of this.

#-o

What? I was bored and felt like some creative ranting. :lol: Though some of it should be taken seriously.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jaedar
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Re: Endgame

Post by Jaedar »

Ubisoft has been doing some cool things recently.

But yeah, EA is in full tilt mode. Bankruptcy in 5 years?
"Delays are temporary; mediocrity is forever."
odio ergo sum
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Endgame

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Jaedar wrote: Bankruptcy in 5 years?
Possibly the opposite: Ultimate Market Dominance. :shock:
They are the illuminati of the game industry, pulling strings and forming a new world gaming order, only operating in the open for all to see yet nobody can stop them!

Origin for all!

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AEmer
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Re: Endgame

Post by AEmer »

Sit down kids and I shall tell you a tale of long ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto_Games

This was manifesto games. It launched in 2005.
This is a manifesto published on manifesto games in 2006:

http://web.archive.org/web/200610211510 ... /node/1943

This is 7 years ago. Do you know when Greg Costikyan decided that videogame publishing was broken? Not in 2005, that's for sure.

Look at the content and background provided in that article. Look at the games referenced. Steel Panthers, Heroes of Might and Magic, Space Empires IV, Disciples II - check the release dates on those games if you want.

The manifest isn't written by Costikyan, but his fingerprints are all over the entire thing.

Here's an especially ironic quote:
In fact, as with any iconic terminology that is familiar to the Masses (See, I can’t help myself.), there is also the chance that such verbiage will be perceived as anachronistic and irrelevant instead of challenging and dynamic in the sense we intend.
Of course, Manifesto ended up being _completely_ irrelevant, and all the talk of revolution in the games industry ended up being little more than a dull brainfart.

Why is this relevant, Cybernetic Pig? Because this hatred of the current and nostalgia about the past is a continual cycle; it is a running trend that would be a joke if not for how serious the practicioners seem to be about it.

Concretely, not everybody thought things were rosy-red in the 2000-2005 era of video games, even though that period saw releases such as Deus Ex, Half Life 2, Halo and Halo 2, Residen Evil 4, Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts 2, Neverwinter Nights, The Sims, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Grand Theft Auto: Vice City and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, World of Warcraft, Warcraft 3, Metroid Prime, Civilisation 4, Knight of the Old Republic, God of War, Battlefield 1942, Super Smash Brothers: Melee, Doom 3, Diablo 2. I mean, think about that for a second. We're talking 5 classics _a year_ for that period. There is not a single one of those games that can be considered shallow; granted you probably don't need to play some of them for more than 5 hours to get the point and take the experience with you, but each and every one has had hardcore fans that deeply invested themselves for good reasons, each and every one of them brought something new to the table and took risks. None were safe. I myself have logged 500 hours of Civ4, just to grab an example, and more time in diablo 2 than I care to think about.

And this is just the cream of the crop which was recognized by awards shows and the press, our glamour games. These are our 'academy awards' winners; for each of these there are 25 lesser known but high quality games, some of which could be considered classics within their own genres. Gaming was booming.

And here comes along a couple of dipshits (because that's what they were) who thought to make a business for games sticking it to 'the man' (big publishers), and they ended up backing such wonderful things as Super Columbine Massacre RPG. These were learned men; academics who were guest speakers at universities, and whose writings were used as curriculum for courses. These were supposedly 'experts'. People with influence among academics (I participated in an IRC chat with a doctor and professor teaching game theory with focus on narratology, a professor teaching game design with focus on ludology, a very well established game theory author, and Costykian himself), I might add, people who were highly respected by their peers. And they pull this shitty website with this shitty, irrelevant rhetoric out of their bums.

It's hard to overstate this point. These were a bunch of sad old men sitting in their ivory towers, watching the biggest boom in gaming _history_, and their response? 'Meh'. They deserve not just to be chided, they deserve to be verbally cut down for making such a massive misjudgement about the health of the games industry. In the end, it seems they were way more interested in thinking about what to write about games than actually playing them or understanding the medium in a broader cultural context.

When I saw this thread, it made me think of Manifesto Games, and I'm sure you've already figured out why: I think you're really wrong about the current state of the games industry, and I think you say what you say because you're unreasonably disillusioned.

You're right, there's a lot of crap out there. There's also a lot of crappy movies. There's a lot of crappy writing. I don't know if it's the relatively short age of gaming that provokes people to latch on to this idea that things are going down the toilet and something must be done, but it seems even those of us who are supposedly the smartest fall pray to it. And Jaedar is right that EA is in full tilt at the moment; the whole simcity debacle was very likely caused by their desire to run a simcity shop where you can buy such interesting dlc as "sausagefest 2015" which adds the ability to play with 10 different kinds of hotdogstands in your town for a mere 5 dollars. They and a bunch of others have a massive hardon for microtransactions, which appear to tap into a weird tendency among consumers, and yes, it _is_ problematic because market research essentially indicates that there's a significant market for 'pay to win' microtransaction games. Which, yeah, go figure: Magic The Gathering and Pokemon exist for a reason.

But all that aside...your outlook is simply too bleak, and you are way too nostalgic. There's still massive amounts of good games coming out. Gaming companies are finally (fucking finally) starting to really figure out cooperative games and games where your social circle role and your in game role meld. And even when companies are putting out derivative crap, there's often room for innovations and advances in various interesting ways...not to mention gaming as a spectator experience, which is getting fucking huge.

Gaming criticism is also in better shape than it has ever been before. Gaming usergroups on reddit present indepth discussion where the good stuff actually gets promoted, and podcasts and letsplays and youtube reviewers provide a much better and more in-touch review-experience than print-magazines ever did. Not to mention that reviews-as-entertainment itself is growing rapidly. Gamespot might be a cesspool filled with useless ichor, but for every gamespot there's a totalbisquit, not to mention the niche podcasts which cover specific gaming communities.

And fuck, whatever else you feel about minecraft, terraria and little big planet, game modding and game creativety has finally found it's way into games as an actual gameplay element. The rise of the mega-expansion-game has also come about - there's like 10 expansions for the sims. If a game is popular and expandable, game companies are now willing to keep improving the experience further and further. They're pressing the envelope in a lot of new, weird ways - and I haven't even mentioned kickstarter.

Gaming has made absolutely massive progress in the last 3 years alone. When you say gaming is going down the crapper, you sound like a friend of mine who loves to argue that the simpsons was best from seasons 3 through 9, never being willing to admit that this was probably because he just happened to be the simpsons exact target age bracket for precisely those 6 years of his life. It's ridiculous. It's just as ridiculous as the Manifesto group being formed at the end of a god damned golden age.
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Jaedar
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Re: Endgame

Post by Jaedar »

As much as some of the things Aemer says makes me go :? I have to agree with the overall message.

Gaming is doing better now than it was a few years ago. Perhaps we will in the future remember 2005-2011 as the dark years in between two golden ages of gaming. Perhaps not. But I know that for the first time in years, I'm looking at 2013-2014 and thinking: Damn, there's gonna be some really cool stuff coming out.

EA may be the biggest fish, but just cause it is dieing doesn't mean the entire industry is.
"Delays are temporary; mediocrity is forever."
odio ergo sum
nerdenstein
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Re: Endgame

Post by nerdenstein »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Jaedar wrote: Bankruptcy in 5 years?
Origin for all!
HELP! I've got three Origin discount codes! Must. Not. Use. Them.
The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Endgame

Post by Cybernetic pig »

AEmer wrote: Concretely, not everybody thought things were rosy-red in the 2000-2005 era of video games, even though that period saw releases such as Deus Ex, Half Life 2, Halo and Halo 2, Residen Evil 4, Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts 2, Neverwinter Nights, The Sims, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Grand Theft Auto: Vice City and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, World of Warcraft, Warcraft 3, Metroid Prime, Civilisation 4, Knight of the Old Republic, God of War, Battlefield 1942, Super Smash Brothers: Melee, Doom 3, Diablo 2.
i'd remove many from that list that do not appeal to me, however I'd add a crap ton more. Those years were awesome, not rosy-red, but not as bad as this gen.
Those I'd remove certainly have recognizable qualities though.

I mean, think about that for a second. We're talking 5 classics _a year_ for that period. There is not a single one of those games that can be considered shallow; granted you probably don't need to play some of them for more than 5 hours to get the point and take the experience with you, but each and every one has had hardcore fans that deeply invested themselves for good reasons, each and every one of them brought something new to the table and took risks. None were safe
.

My rant was not specifically focused on "Good Games", as that is mostly subjective, it was focused on business models, which nobody can ignore has been a big problem this gen, and that next gen looks set to be far worse. Your tale started off charming, but it ended up in rant territory too only missing the point and ultimately failing in it's purpose :P

I get what you are saying though, there will most definitely be gems next gen, I am certain. But don't blind yourself because men of the past have said similar words.
And yes, there will always be quality pushing through such as the indie movement, an actual AAA that deserves to be categorized as such and maybe a few unknown gems I've missed, surely.

Also, Columbine Massacre RPG? #-o :lol:
and yes, it _is_ problematic because market research essentially indicates that there's a significant market for 'pay to win' microtransaction games. Which, yeah, go figure: Magic The Gathering and Pokemon exist for a reason.
They've added microT's to Pokemon? :cry: It's always been abused by being released with multiple versions at the same time with little differences, however you could just buy one and play for hundreds of hours, as I did when I was a kid. Now say a kid these days finds the game a hundred hour gametime worthy? Microtransactions will eat away at his gaming passion and his pocket money.
AEmer wrote: Gaming has made absolutely massive progress in the last 3 years alone. When you say gaming is going down the crapper, you sound like a friend of mine who loves to argue that the simpsons was best from seasons 3 through 9, never being willing to admit that this was probably because he just happened to be the simpsons exact target age bracket for precisely those 6 years of his life. It's ridiculous. It's just as ridiculous as the Manifesto group being formed at the end of a god damned golden age.
No, do not compare me to your wholly opinionated friend. There are other factors to consider. Did the simpsons creators have an evil corporation looming over them, influencing thier creative process?
Did the later seasons have a pay to watch certain content in an episode model?
No.

So many more factors too.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
bobby 55
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Re: Endgame

Post by bobby 55 »

Richard Cobbett gets to the heart of the matter over on Eurogamer: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013- ... -standards
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gamer0004
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Re: Endgame

Post by gamer0004 »

EA is not the future. EA has been making losses in many of the past few years. It is a dying breed.

Excellent article by Cobbett, thanks Bobby.

I genuinely think Kickstarter has the future, or at least games of "Kickstarter-type": larger than indie games made by enthusiasts in their attic, which can yield great results but is ultimately constrained, smaller than the sickly corporate giants trying to force the market with ever-increasing budgets which indeed is ultimately a strategy of mutual destruction.
The games that have been Kickstarted recently, like Torment, Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity, can hopefully combine an expansive, detailed setting and complicated mechanics with at least decent production values. These games don't have to rely on Kickstarter, of course, they may get funding through other ways. But these medium-sized budget games are the future: with a budget that's high enough to make great games but low enough to aim at niches and to make the risk of failure bearable.
AEmer
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Re: Endgame

Post by AEmer »

Your tale started off charming, but it ended up in rant territory too only missing the point and ultimately failing in it's purpose
It was basically one big lack-of-sleep induced piece. I'm fine that it derailed eventually, I had fun writing it, but yeah I'm not happy about the quality towards the end.

Anyway, yes, there are many more factors to consider.
Also, I was actually talking about the pokemon trading card game rather than the pokemon gameboy games. Shoulda clarified that.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Endgame

Post by Cybernetic pig »

gamer0004 wrote:EA is not the future.
Maybe EA will die, but their mark will be forever left on the industry.
The games that have been Kickstarted recently, like Torment, Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity, can hopefully combine an expansive, detailed setting and complicated mechanics with at least decent production values.
All isometric RPGs. I'd prefer first person RPGs, but yeah, I'm hopeful of those projects. Especially since a shit ton of cash & dev time won't be wasted on graphics plus the developers of each are all veterans.
But these medium-sized budget games are the future: with a budget that's high enough to make great games but low enough to aim at niches and to make the risk of failure bearable.
Sounds good. Mainstream market there is little hope for. Suppose the little guys need all the attention they can get anyway, so if more people are pushed away from the mainstream market to the indies then the indies can grow at a faster rate.
There is also that OUYA console.
Valve's console will most likely make an impact, I forgot about that.
AEmer wrote: It was basically one big lack-of-sleep induced piece.
So was mine, only yours was a huge wall-o-text as usual :D
I'm fine that it derailed eventually, I had fun writing it, but yeah I'm not happy about the quality towards the end.
Hey, at least I enjoyed learning about Manifesto games. ;)
AEmer wrote: Also, I was actually talking about the pokemon trading card game rather than the pokemon gameboy games. Shoulda clarified that.
You mentioned Magic: The Gathering, I should have gathered from that. Though M:TG is a video game series too.
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VectorM
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Re: Endgame

Post by VectorM »

Maybe EA will die, but their mark will be forever left on the industry.
Why? Says who?
All isometric RPGs.
Gee, it's like the world is not perfect and you won't always get what you want. Nirvana fallacy all the way.
There is also that OUYA console.
Valve's console will most likely make an impact, I forgot about that.
OUYA is doing shit as of now, with not much to offer. And what it has, you can already play on your regular Android devices.

And that "Valve console" is not actually made by Valve and, so far, it's also complete shit. 1000$ for something that is not PC, but not a console either. I don't understand what the market for this device is. PC people don't like it, they have their own 1000$ PCs, console people don't like it, because it costs too much. Really, this thing has no future.
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gamer0004
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Re: Endgame

Post by gamer0004 »

VectorM wrote:
There is also that OUYA console.
Valve's console will most likely make an impact, I forgot about that.
OUYA is doing shit as of now, with not much to offer. And what it has, you can already play on your regular Android devices.

And that "Valve console" is not actually made by Valve and, so far, it's also complete shit. 1000$ for something that is not PC, but not a console either. I don't understand what the market for this device is. PC people don't like it, they have their own 1000$ PCs, console people don't like it, because it costs too much. Really, this thing has no future.
There is no Valve console yet. Just some machines Valve was looking into. Valve invested in some company (Xi3) to see what they could do. They showed valve a $1000 console. Valve said "na-uh!" and now denies all involvement in their products. Gabe Newell is not Steve Ballmer; he understands the industry. He isn't stupid enough to think a $1000 valvebox would work.

When talking about steambox you should probably think about the Alienware X51 - $600 for a full PC. It's Alienware, so it's not exactly cheap, but it's going in the right direction (of course, a PC console means you save money buying a regular PC; if you get a PS4 for $400 plus a regular PC for $300 then a Steambox for $600 is actually cheaper).

As for the OUYA, I'm not quite convinced on that yet, but it could work. It's cheap, and if it works well as a media player than it might be interesting just for that. Then a substantial number of people will buy it even if there are few games specifically designed for the OUYA, which creates a market, which would make developers adapt their games so suit the OUYA, which would make more people buy it, which would make more developers start developing for it &c. The biggest issue I see here is whether it will actually be a decent product or utter rubbish. It could go both ways really. Or it could die a silent death.
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SilverSpook
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Re: Endgame

Post by SilverSpook »

Holy crap a Torment sequel?

Gives one hope.
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VectorM
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Re: Endgame

Post by VectorM »

It's cheap, and if it works well as a media player than it might be interesting just for that.
I fail to see how anyone would start buying that thing for such a reason. Virtually everyone these days has some sort of IPhone/Android device that can do that already and you can still play games on it. And I think most of the games OUYA has are available on Android phones and IPhones anyway.

Oh, did I also mention that every game on OUYA HAS TO be some form of free-to-play? I know you love some free-to-play :mrgreen:
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