Psst, Jonas

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Cybernetic pig
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Cybernetic pig »

AEmer wrote: I reckon that it's doable _if you're not using your own assets_, though. Asset reuse will drastically cut down on development time as it gets more common.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it will be easy. Recycling and pilfering of free commercial use assets is what I had in mind as well as the artists making their own. Some may call that unprofessional, but I'd call it a means to an successful end. That end goal being a potentially very special game.

Besides, few would notice anyway if they were modified for consistency where necessary :p
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by AEmer »

I absolutely agree with you.

I'm a big proponent of custom made 3d models. Making stuff is just _fun_.

I myself collect, assemble and paint miniature war figurines. I call this a hobby. I like woodworking, and I like making things with my hands. Also, a hobby. A very useful and rewarding one.

There is absolutely no reason people couldn't enjoy making 3d models if they had a way to share them, a way to show them off, and a good way to make them. Unfortunately, it's quite complicated stuff. I'm pretty sure it would take me longer to design a 3d model of many things than it would take me to actually make the same thing in a workshop.

Down the line? I think art assets will be licensed. For cheap. From people who enjoy making them. Yeah, maybe you sink in 50 hours into something, and maybe you only ever see 100$ for it - so it's not cost effective - but that's not the point. The point is, you make it because its awesome to make it.

Tab into the creative energy that's sitting outthere among people, and you can really get something done for cheap.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Already a thing ;) Unity's asset store for example. Lots of custom stuff for commercial use to purchase on there.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by AEmer »

but the tools are still not yet focused on creating things in sensible ways. To some degree, they have a creative individual work around the constraints of 3d modelling, rather than 3d modelling working around the constraints of the modeller.

Might sound a bit weird, but it's wholly necessary to start doing something...
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Jonas »

No offense, I like how you guys are thinking, but we have an art director and we're not going for straight-up photorealism nor World of Warcraft, and those are pretty much the only two options for licensed art assets. Modifying stock assets would take as much time as making our assets from scratch. And visual consistency is super important, visual as well as every other type of consistency :)
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by AEmer »

Ah, well, I'm not saying it's an option right now.

Consider a nice mahogany chair.

http://office-turn.com/wp-content/uploa ... -Chair.jpg

This is one such chair, but it's also a work of art. Would I enjoy making a chair such as this in 3d? Not if I only did it for myself. An expression has to have an audience.

For a nice chair like this one, a lot of effort and time has gone into designing the work process for manufacturing it. What I suggest is not that everybody becomes a furniture designer, but rather, that tools will eventually be developed to allow furniture designers (rather than 3d modellers) to design their chairs in a way that allows them to share the chair accross a digital medium.

If developed a chair, I would want to share it on my facebook account, and I wouldn't mind seeing it in computer games and so on. Put a good pipeline in place that allows people to design replicas of realistic objects using 'tools' that simulate real world tools, and I think a library of art assets will basically assemble itself if given enough time. I give this concept 10 years, then I think 'prefabbed' assets will form the basis of most game art, even for less realistic games :)
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Jonas »

B-- buuut... consistency.

Seriously we have 3 modellers in the office and we still have visual consistency problems in the first level.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by VectorM »

AEmer wrote:Ah, well, I'm not saying it's an option right now.

Consider a nice mahogany chair.

http://office-turn.com/wp-content/uploa ... -Chair.jpg

This is one such chair, but it's also a work of art. Would I enjoy making a chair such as this in 3d? Not if I only did it for myself. An expression has to have an audience.

For a nice chair like this one, a lot of effort and time has gone into designing the work process for manufacturing it. What I suggest is not that everybody becomes a furniture designer, but rather, that tools will eventually be developed to allow furniture designers (rather than 3d modellers) to design their chairs in a way that allows them to share the chair accross a digital medium.

If developed a chair, I would want to share it on my facebook account, and I wouldn't mind seeing it in computer games and so on. Put a good pipeline in place that allows people to design replicas of realistic objects using 'tools' that simulate real world tools, and I think a library of art assets will basically assemble itself if given enough time. I give this concept 10 years, then I think 'prefabbed' assets will form the basis of most game art, even for less realistic games :)
And once again, what YOU would do and what YOU like isn't neceserally what other artists would do/like.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Jonas »

Settle down, the man was just offering his prediction of what kind of content production methods might arise in the future.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by AEmer »

@Vector
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Presumably you're arguing that my thoughts on prefabbed assets are based on my preferences.

But I have no stake in this. I'm not saying that things will be this way because I want them to be this way; I'm arguing that there is going to be a disruptive revolution in the market for 3d art, and by extension, the way assets are produced before they're used in games.

For instance: Relatively few games have hand modelled trees anymore. While the advent of treegenerators hasn't made hand crafted trees obsolete, they _have_ stolen 99% of the 3d tree marketshare. This has happened completely without regard for mine or your preferences.

My prediction is just that: A prediction. It's not a vision.

@Jonas
While I can appreciate the need for games to be aestetically consistent, consider movies for a brief second. Props for movies are fashioned in all sorts of ways. The ship in Alien is made from childrens toys and glue and whatever was available at the hobby shop. Consistency is a consideration, sure, but you can achieve pretty reasonable consistency without starting with a single box every time you make a new model.

How many assault rifles have been modelled in 3d, I wonder? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Heck I've made a couple myself. So why can't you just go on 'itunes for models' and grab a rifle you like for a quick buck?

Computer code is vastly less portable than any 3d model, yet you can run Doom on more than 100 different platforms a mere 20 years after it was released. What if, in addition to programmers browsing source forge, looking for code to adapt to their projects, you had artists browsing poly forge looking for code to adapt to theirs?

I'm not suggesting you will be able to do without a team of in-house artists, but I am suggesting that the nature of the digital medium will result in a particular kind of art reuse - something similar to what speedtree can do. Hopefully, that'll solve much of the problem of hyper detailed models. Currently, I think naturalistic weapons and furniture will be next in line to be 'solved', then clothes, then eventually animation. Modifying such assets into abstract or surreal versions depending on the look you want, or otherwise adapting them, is probably not going to be terribly tricky - at least not comparatively.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Cybernetic pig »

AEmer wrote: How many assault rifles have been modelled in 3d, I wonder? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Heck I've made a couple myself. So why can't you just go on 'itunes for models' and grab a rifle you like for a quick buck?
This. It would have consequences, like you said tree gen replaced people modelling trees, but fm I hate the thought of all the assault rifles that have been slaved over. Another consequence would be lack of individuality. Every shooter's guns have a different look (and feel cos code and effects, anims etc), but I doubt it would really be a problem, only some indie studios would take advantage of licensed assets, I know I would.

The need for a 3D modeller prevented my buddy from adding optional aim down the sights to DX with RPG systems tied to it (I had such a great system drafted) :(, because on the unseen side of the 1st person models there is missing polys.
If I knew this was your field I would have hassled you :)
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Jonas »

The thing is, even something as simple as an M4A1 can look completely different depending on which artist makes it, and under which art direction.

Here's the M4A1 from Modern Warfare 2: http://images.wikia.com/callofduty/imag ... A1_MW2.png
Here's the "AMCAR-4" (it's an M4A1 renamed) from Payday 2: http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/f/ff/ ... ding_1.jpg

You can't just take one of those weapons and put it into the other game, it would stick out like a sore thumb compared to all the other weapons. Tree generators work because their output is hugely customisable - you set the generator's parameters according to the detail level you want and you feed it hand-made textures that fit your art direction.

The only way I can see your method working is... if the database you got your source material from was made with straight-up scans, extremely high-detail vector files, or something like that which would then be processed by a program that would automate a large part of the process of simplifying the assets and preparing them for the game engine. And that program would have to be VERY customisable. Basically I only see this working if the source files haven't even been touched by another artist first.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Yeah...consistency would be a big problem. But if these asset stores are one day so extensive you could perhaps find a category that would fit right in easily.

And still this is only guns we are talking about- foliage, plants and such there isn't a huge gap in style from one artist to the next, right? Like trees.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Jonas »

You'd be surprised.

As mentioned, with just 3 artists we have severe consistency problems in our first level because it was populated in a rush before the art director had time to get everybody on the same page. And this is seriously stuff like cardboard boxes, bushes, shipping containers, asphalt textures. In fact it took something like 4 revisions just to come up with a set of ground textures (asphalt and cobblestone) that had the right style for the game.

I think most people seriously underestimate how much effort goes into defining and achieving an art direction, even if that art direction is as close as possible to photorealism (turns out there are many ways to approach photorealism). Six months into the project and we're only just starting to get there. Unless you've worked with a trained art director, you won't know the half of it. But if you play a game cobbled together by assets from just 3-5 artists who never managed to work out a unified art style, I guarantee that you will notice something off in the aesthetics of the game.

Limbo of the Lost probably being the most heinous example in recent memory :lol:
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by AEmer »

@CP
It's not my field...I just happen to dabble in, well, everything.

@Jonas
Right so what you're suggesting is that you need high quality textures and very high quality 3d vector graphics.

What I'd suggest is something like that. The m4a1 carbine is really an ar15 rifle (with a full auto option) receiver with a specific set - depending on revision - of other things: A specific barrel (generally with one with attachment options but not always), a specific stock (typically plastic), a specific muzzle and a specific magazine. In addition, the sights vary a bit between receivers.

I'm not suggesting that the two games you mention are going to run with the same M4A1. I'm suggesting that rather than making your own, you have your 'gun guy' browse a selection of receivers, a selection of barrels, a selection of muzzles, a selection of stocks and a selection of magazines. He pulls the assets down, and maybe he tweaks the sights and adds a camo plate attachment to the barrel, maybe he paints it in camo colours, and maybe he finds a red dot and barrel grip attachment. It would also be very easy to change some dimensions and visual affects to get a completely different looking beast.

Essentially, both those guns you have pictures off could easily be based on the same 'core' model. Now if we want to be really creative, the 'store' would have a requirement that if you modify a gun for use in your game, you have to make your modified version available on the store for a reasonable price so that other people might use it. That'll take a major change in perception for a lot of people who like the idea that they 'own' the stuff they make, and that they need to 'protect' that stuff so that other people don't profit off of their work, but just as with source code, I think eventually that approach will win out.

Anyway, sidenotes aside, the point is, you're no longer in a position where you make something from scratch. Because you don't make it from scratch, you merely adapt something that already exists to your game. Since you're based off of something real that has already been modelled and designed in realistic detail, you simply modify it, and boom, your gun is right there, 'maximum def', as it were. After all, gun parts are mechanical: They have strict specifications that, if you adhere to them, make them virtually identical. Like screws or nails. It's therefore possible to make 'prototypical parts' that are essentially real world replicas.

You can't do that with organic things unless you simulate organic growth (as is the case with trees), but most 'stuff' can be 'digitized' like a gun could.

In the same vein, populating a level with furniture should be no different from browsing an online ikea catalogue and popping it right in there as though you were playing 'the sims'.
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