Psst, Jonas

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Jonas
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Jonas »

AEmer wrote:you simply modify it, and boom, your gun is right there, 'maximum def', as it were. After all, gun parts are mechanical: They have strict specifications that, if you adhere to them, make them virtually identical. Like screws or nails. It's therefore possible to make 'prototypical parts' that are essentially real world replicas.
Sure, that'd work if the medium progresses to the point where models aren't based on triangles and colour maps but actual simulated materials shaped and assembled using real-world methods and rules, with vectors instead of polygons and actual bumps and creases instead of normal maps. But as long as we need to abstract and simplify these things into assets made out of triangles, colour maps, normal maps, and specular maps, there will be many different ways to approach that process, and the way you go about approaching that will very much change the look of your assets. The Payday 2 and Modern Warfare 2 carbines aren't just different because they have different parts, they're also different because the detail level in the model is different, the texture style is different (one is much darker), and the normal and specular maps have been "tuned" differently. There was a process of interpretation that took place when the artist recreated the real-world weapon digitally for use in the game, and that interpretation is more significant than you as a non-artist might think.

This is also one of the main reasons why it's often faster and easier to just remake an asset from scratch rather than tweak an asset that somebody else made in a different style to suit the style you want. Again returning to Clandestine as a case in point, we had an intern in the first months of the project who was not actually an artist, he was a designer, but he could do 3D stuff and we needed a modeller waaaaaaay more than we needed a third designer, so we had him on environment asset production duties throughout his internship with us. His work was not very good, it was far too simple and the textures had no normal maps or specular, and not enough detail to make normal and specular maps out of. We've been gradually replacing everything he did since then, and it's been faster to just remake it from scratch instead of working with his source files to try and bring them up to snuff.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by AEmer »

There was a process of interpretation that took place when the artist recreated the real-world weapon digitally for use in the game, and that interpretation is more significant than you as a non-artist might think.
Well that's a bit patronising. It's also not right in my case, but that's a digression.
What I will say is that the things you mention are highly influenced by the state of current technology. We will always need a normal map equivalent (it's just that smart), we will just not always have to make or modify one 'by hand'.. But the need for an interpretation is only there so long as no 'perfect' model exists. Take the m16 receiver.

http://2323862zru3v2q2fq331fqh87fk.wpen ... iver_5.jpg

The ideal modeller for this piece is a machinist or engineer who understands the tools used to produce this specific part. They are, after all, the people who understand why it is made as it is made.

The software to build the receiver needs to be useable by them as though it was the machinery they'd use to output 100 of these in a day.

While - ok - not all m16 receivers look alike, and there's obviously a bunch of decals and ingravings in this one, the point is that you _can_ in fact make a perfect digital version of this.

In this case, you wouldn't have a specular, normal and hight map supplied witht he model. You would have an ingraving map. Using an algorithm, you would then 'bake' the requisite maps at as late of a stage as possible, to preserve as much detail as feasible.

Same would go for the little extrusion at the part of the receiver where the magazine goes. That wouldn't be made up of millions of polygons, but rather as a bevelled extrusion modifier and a plainer looking 3d model. That way you don't even lock in on a specific amount of polygons untill you need to. Same concept goes for all of the rounded corners.

Impossible, for now, yeah. Pretty much. In the future though? This is the way things will be done.
they're also different because the detail level in the model is different, the texture style is different (one is much darker), and the normal and specular maps have been "tuned" differently
None of that precludes their ability to rely on the same base digital asset.
His work was not very good, it was far too simple and the textures had no normal maps or specular, and not enough detail to make normal and specular maps out of. We've been gradually replacing everything he did since then, and it's been faster to just remake it from scratch instead of working with his source files to try and bring them up to snuff.
:-/ - I'm not really talking about building on top of something like that though.

Also, it sounds like you didn't get much for his work, which is a shame.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

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AEmer wrote:
There was a process of interpretation that took place when the artist recreated the real-world weapon digitally for use in the game, and that interpretation is more significant than you as a non-artist might think.
Well that's a bit patronising. It's also not right in my case, but that's a digression.
No that wasn't patronising, it was based on my own experience (ie. I still don't fully understand the nuances of art direction and I continue to be surprised when these things make such a big difference).

How is it not right in your case? Do you have an art background that you never made me aware of?
Impossible, for now, yeah. Pretty much. In the future though? This is the way things will be done.
Yeah I think our sides of the debate have fully converged. This is pretty much what I've been arguing from the start - that if what you propose were to work, it would first require an extreme shift in the way art assets are created, processed, and handled by the engine.

Although saying "this is the way things will be done" sounds somewhat hubristic. Careful about predicting the future with such certainty ;)
None of that precludes their ability to rely on the same base digital asset.
Not if everything about how art assets are produced for game engines changes, no.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Jaedar »

I feel like Aemer is hoping for some sort of 'million monkeys with typewriters' situation. Which would be very cool; anything which makes game development cheaper without a reduction in quality would be very nice.

We'll see what the future brings, as for now:

When are you going to play Clandestine with me Jonas? I feel I should start bothering you now so you run out of excuses by the time its actually playable ;)
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Re: Psst, Jonas

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Well, it's not exactly everything about how art assets are produced that has to change.

(If I'm right) It'll actually approach how art assets are produced for statically rendered sequences - but the big breaking point is in the human computer interface. This is where the inroads will be made. Which makes sense: Although realtime graphical rendering has to be much more efficient about things than static rendering, the goals are ultimately the same: Making things look like what they're supposed to look like.

You could almost certainly do the things I suggest right now - it would just take an inconveniently large amount of menial labor for every asset.

And yeah, the reason it'll happen is because it _can_ happen, and because it's economical for it to happen. That's my opinion and so on.

As for whether or not I found it patronizing, I did, because I do know what goes into (current) artist work, regardless of my non-artist status. Considering we're talking about the future, and not current stuff, it wasn't relevant - but I know because I understand how the current real time graphical pipeline works. Sorry if it sounds like posturing, but I don't know how else to say it. I took a course in it as recently as a year ago. An analogy: I've made an entire formula one car from scratch (including optimizing it and testing its limits), so I have a pretty good idea how hard it's going to be to drive it, and I know about most of the shortcuts you need to take to do it well. I've also (recently) dabbled in a bit of 3d modeling, so I've gone a few labs around the track myself, you could say.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

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Jaedar wrote:When are you going to play Clandestine with me Jonas? I feel I should start bothering you now so you run out of excuses by the time its actually playable ;)
Hahah! I'll make space in my busy calendar, but I'm probably going to be thoroughly tired of the game by the time it comes out ;)
AEmer wrote:As for whether or not I found it patronizing, I did, because I do know what goes into (current) artist work, regardless of my non-artist status. Considering we're talking about the future, and not current stuff, it wasn't relevant - but I know because I understand how the current real time graphical pipeline works. Sorry if it sounds like posturing, but I don't know how else to say it. I took a course in it as recently as a year ago. An analogy: I've made an entire formula one car from scratch (including optimizing it and testing its limits), so I have a pretty good idea how hard it's going to be to drive it, and I know about most of the shortcuts you need to take to do it well. I've also (recently) dabbled in a bit of 3d modeling, so I've gone a few labs around the track myself, you could say.
Well fortunately I don't have to care whether you found it patronising or not, as long as you understand that I didn't intend it to be patronising. As I've explained in my last reply how it was intended, you may now continue to find it patronising or not, I simply don't give a toss. That, by the way, was intended to be patronising ;)

As for your arguments, I think you've missed my point. I'm not talking about asset pipelines, I'm not talking about the technical aspects of creating assets and getting them in the game, I'm talking about all the artistic considerations that go into that - I'm talking about art direction. Your high school art classes are probably more relevant in that respect than your university 3D classes. What I keep trying to convey is that even when you have 3 guys with roughly the same skillset working in exactly the same graphics software and implementing their work into exactly the same engine in exactly the same way, you may still end up with a handful of art assets that don't fit together. Short of actual 1:1 photorealism, the only thing I can imagine might solve that problem is if the process of converting real-world objects to game objects were to be fully automated.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by AEmer »

Well, if it was based on your own experience, you might've had better luck communicating that if you used the pronoun 'we' or 'I' rather than 'you'. Just saying.

Also, if I make paint, both oil and water and acrylic, and I make pencils, if I make stencils and brushes, if I make scaffolds and canvasses and glaces and thinners - you might think I'd have some idea what kind of paintings can be made with those tools, and what kind of effects may be accomplished with them. Am I going to know everything there is to know? No.

However, I know that the reason artists are currently _forced_ to interpret is because they cannot merely reproduce a one to one asset because of the constraints of the pipeline, not to mention how clunky the current tools are.

I'm not saying artists will ever stop being relevant. I'm saying that instead of reproducing things from scratch in the digital medium, they will assume a role where they mostly translate existing digital assets into an art style, if one is required. I also think a new job will arise; that of a reproducer who 'translates' real world assets into digital equivalents.

Although, if some clever fellow makes a furniture shop game, or a gun maker game, and so on, we might end up with so many digital-only assets that we never make it to a point where translating 'real world' stuff becomes relevant.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

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Jonas wrote:
Jaedar wrote:When are you going to play Clandestine with me Jonas? I feel I should start bothering you now so you run out of excuses by the time its actually playable ;)
Hahah! I'll make space in my busy calendar, but I'm probably going to be thoroughly tired of the game by the time it comes out ;)
Clearly, the only solution is to play it with me before it comes out ;)
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by nerdenstein »

Feature in PCGamers article 'The best PC games of 2014': http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/01/04/the-b ... -of-2014/8
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Re: Psst, Jonas

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Thanks for the link! :D

...although that article does seem to be more like "every upcoming PC game that we know about" :P
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by nerdenstein »

Jonas wrote:Thanks for the link! :D

...although that article does seem to be more like "every upcoming PC game that we know about" :P
You're quite welcome. It was a pleasant surprise to see it there! I didn't know if you guys had done any marketing for it just yet.

You're far too pessimistic for your own good. ;)

Though I did feel that calling it 'Best PC games of 2014' was odd. A better title would have been 'Title of 2014+ that we are most looking forward too'(?).
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Yeah, "Best" PC games, they can dictate this how? OK, it's obvious it's their opinion but it's poor wording on their part as professionals.

"...although that article does seem to be more like "every upcoming PC game that we know about" :P"

Yep, this too. I won't be reading any of PCGamer's work if this is what gets written and gets past editors on the regular. Video game journalism :-s

At least they are giving decent attention to Indies I guess.
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Re: Psst, Jonas

Post by Hassat Hunter »

Good to see I'm not the only one thinking "best? These are ALL known games!"...
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Oh wait, I already got one...
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