The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

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Cybernetic pig
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Made in China wrote:I thought Dishonored was very close to it in terms of design.
On the surface. Deus Ex goes way deeper. It's a decent game but for me it is one of the more forgettable Immersive Sims.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Jonas »

Made in China wrote:The limitations were once clear, so it was relatively easy to work within their confines and either do something unexpected and innovative or push the limits and do more, better. Nowadays, for a creative game we need a creative idea from the get go - it doesn't just pop up in development because there's nothing to hinder us.
That doesn't sound like any version of the games industry that I'm familiar with. Technological innovations are one of those things that always seem to be going away, but you'll find always lurking around every corner. On top of that there's manpower and budgeting limitations, scheduling limitations, and various market-driven limitations (such as what platforms are popular and what kind of games people are actually spending their money on).

If you can't find any interesting constraints to motivate innovation, you must be working at Valve ;)
Jaedar wrote:Which, if you think about it, is a sentiment of the past.
Bullshit.
When was the last time a new genre was born? ;)
First off, one does not need to reinvent everything in order to make something that is genuinely new.

Secondly, even when a game can be said to have established a new genre, certain users of this forum would immediately dismiss it because it is not an old-school RPG or an exact clone of Deus Ex (with ZERO margin for error).

Third, I dunno - how about the genre of pure narrative exploration disparagingly labelled "walking simulator" (Dear Esther)? How about MOBAs (invented years ago, sure, but didn't become a genre until HON and LOL)? How about vehicular sports (Rocket League)? How about voxel-based building games (Minecraft plus immitators)? How about open-world survival games (Day-Z, Dust)? How about asymmetrical co-op stealth/hacking (*cough*)? How about couch co-op starship bridge simulators? How about computer-assisted drinking games (B.U.T.T.O.N.)? How about the endless runner (Canabalt)?

I'm sure I could come up with more, especially if I played more mobile games.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by LeoBad »

Well, I think the gameplay for Mankind Divided looks great, fast and crisp, if a tad pale in color (more red please). I really want to check what they come up with in terms of story depth.

And, to add my 0.02: Original is not the same as new. Being original is about repurposing, about reworking certain element(s) and making them do new things. But, What you do has to be tied to what is current, otherwise it is just dated or quirky. Originality is an idea, "a square with a rounded face" that you don't get at first sight. It only takes a second for the mind to get it and after it does it cannot be ungotten. Ideas like "the earth is round", "matter is energy", "time is relative" are examples of original thinking. Michael Jackson changing his skin was original.
Does this mean that you can only be original when going on a plotted course (expected behavior)? Yes an no. Yes you need the familiarity, but you are not original by going against it. That is a basic response. Originality is initiated, when it is not expected, it is a surprise. That is absolutely necessary and it's a distinction from mere going against the grain for the sake of being "different". Being different is not original. Trying to be original is not original. Trying to be new is old.

Originality implies development, "action" after "thought"; harvesting of a mental seed.

What I find makes me feel frustrated is the general dumbing down of subjects and themes that is and has been going on in mainstream media. This is an area that games used to be ( and still can be) clean off.

And lastly, story threads will undoubtedly keep getting edited because of budgetary and schedule restraints. But there just have to be enough of these tangents in a game to make it interesting and deep enough. If you take those out, you get movies.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Made in China »

Jonas wrote:That doesn't sound like any version of the games industry that I'm familiar with. Technological innovations are one of those things that always seem to be going away, but you'll find always lurking around every corner. On top of that there's manpower and budgeting limitations, scheduling limitations, and various market-driven limitations (such as what platforms are popular and what kind of games people are actually spending their money on).
Well, compared to the old limitations (only having a certain color palette to work with, no/limited 3D, resolution constraints, game size constraints, memory constraints) the new ones seem like a walk in the park - not to mention that they were once piled on top of the old ones. Heck, E.T. was developed in a month by one guy.
Nowadays we have enough computing power on our hands that devs are focusing on shit like simulating Lara Croft's hair movements accurately, all the while stuffing the game with QTEs. If that isn't a primary example of losing focus due to the lack of constraints, I don't know what is.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Jaedar »

Jonas wrote: Third, I dunno - how about the genre of pure narrative exploration disparagingly labelled "walking simulator" (Dear Esther)? How about MOBAs (invented years ago, sure, but didn't become a genre until HON and LOL)? How about vehicular sports (Rocket League)? How about voxel-based building games (Minecraft plus immitators)? How about open-world survival games (Day-Z, Dust)? How about asymmetrical co-op stealth/hacking (*cough*)? How about couch co-op starship bridge simulators? How about computer-assisted drinking games (B.U.T.T.O.N.)? How about the endless runner (Canabalt)?
You certainly have a point with some of these. Open world survival especially seems to have turned into an actual subgenre. As have MOBAs. I'm not entirely sure one game counts for a genre though. Indies are certainly still trying. Walking simulators even got adopted by the AAA industry with that game about the girl who can travel in time (life is strange?). And I think you're being a bit optimistic calling Clandestine a new genre.

Oh, and you forgot the most important, which is border official simulator :P.

As for the industry now and then and constraints, I wish to offer the following anecdote:
When Gollop was developing the original x-com, he originally intended it to be pretty much a copy of Laser squad in terms of gameplay. The publisher however, wasn't having any of that, and demanded that they add more depth. This lead to the creation of the geoscape.

I cannot imagine a current day publisher going: This game needs to be deeper and more complex.
LeoBad wrote: Well, I think the gameplay for Mankind Divided looks great, fast and crisp, if a tad pale in color (more red please). I really want to check what they come up with in terms of story depth.
It looks like human revolution.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Hir »

I think what makes for a great game is a great story, end of. Or at least a great premise.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Jaedar wrote: Oh, and you forgot the most important, which is border official simulator :P.
Don't forget the rest of the simulator trend, most notably mountain simulator.

"These days a potato salad can rake in over $15K on Kickstarter and a barely interactive "mountain simulator" can become one of the most popular programs on the iOS App Store. What a world we live in."
Hir wrote:I think what makes for a great game is a great story, end of. Or at least a great premise.
......

Gameplay is what makes games unique. It is what makes games, games.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Hir »

I disagree, in terms of game mechanics when was the last time you saw something really different. All that's really changed in last, ???, 8 years lets say is that the pictures got nicer really, hardly anything got added in terms of the mechanics. The only thing that will progress the games is when and if artificial intelligence becomes a reality. I'm not talking AI combat tactics but some level of genuine intelligence so that you can be judged on your actions, interactions and conversations in game. Not in the fairly limited way this is done now. So what makes a game stand out from any other game, story and atmosphere and the right story facilitates a good atmosphere.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Jaedar »

I disagree, in terms of story telling, when was the last time you saw something really different? All that's really changed in the last, ???, 2000 years is that it got easier to write a story down.

In other words, your argument is silly. Gameplay is what makes a game a game and not a movie or book that you use on your computer.

If you can't see the difference in gameplay between say skyrim and XCOM, then... I don't even know.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Cybernetic pig »

"Latest Kim Kardashian News Makes Florida TV Anchor Walk Off Set:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kODnzx694PQ

The balance has been shifted in most corners of media. I really don't think there is much wrong with my perspective, rather it is the perspective of others that isn't sharp enough.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Jaedar wrote:I disagree, in terms of story telling, when was the last time you saw something really different? All that's really changed in the last, ???, 2000 years is that it got easier to write a story down.
Eh, there's lots of new ways to tell a story, my favorite being the techniques used in Deus Ex and its Immersive Sim brethren. However, this is only all achieved via gameplay/interactivity, so we are back to square one.
I agree with the overall point you were making anyhow.

It is harder to innovate these days, but innovation isn't all I demand when I look to modern games anyway. Old games were often unpolished (Deus Ex, for one), and often had concepts just begging to be expanded upon, combined or rearranged. Deus Ex isn't the pinnacle of Immersive simulation design, there's still so much more advancement to be experienced there. I demand the evolution of games as we knew them, but the direction instead changed to simplifying, and making pseudo-games which are just simplifications of old concepts. Again, of course there are exceptions.

Apologies for the double post.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

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Cybernetic pig wrote: I demand the evolution of games as we knew them, but the direction instead changed to simplifying, and making pseudo-games which are just simplifications of old concepts. Again, of course there are exceptions.
I totally agree.

There's so many old games I'd like to see expanded, refined, followed up on. But today, its way more likely they'll be shrunk down. In terms of mechanics and complexity, a lot of sequels feel like prequels. Since we've already talked about the witcher, I'll use that as an example.

In the first game, you can drink potions any time, but the duration is only a few seconds. So in order to make the game more about preparing for combat, in the second game, they made potions last a lot longer, but you could only drink them while resting. However, that was a bit shit, because you basically needed prescience to know which potion to drink and when (or backtrack needlessly). So for the third game, they finally got it right, and potions were strong, lasted a long time, and could be drunk any time, but you could only drink so many at a time and they were fairly costly to make. And you could only make them while resting, so you still needed preparation.

See, that's a progression that makes sense. Of course, I told it in reverse, because in truth they started out correctly, and then fucked it up for the sequels.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Jaedar wrote: See, that's a progression that makes sense. Of course, I told it in reverse, because in truth they started out correctly, and then fucked it up for the sequels.
Interesting. I've never played a Witcher (most say the gameplay is mediocre), but yes your description of the first does sound like the "correct" way to do it: make them very useful/valuable, usable at any time (rather than some unbelievable limitation like only when resting), but ensure via a drinking limit that the player cannot break the game challenges by spamming a horde of potions at once. Not only that but it is simulated, as we humans in real life can only drink so many fluids at one time...although I hear you play as the mythical Witcher in the game, but I don't know exactly what that entails and the dude looks human to me so it is safe to assume many real world rules apply to him.

Elder Scrolls: Oblivion had these same potion rules too, but sadly as I'm sure we agree it otherwise felt more like a prequel to Morrowind in terms of overall game design.

Yippee! I've just leveled up in unrealscript: I am now ready to take Deus Ex's AI to level 4. Expect an AI demonstration video soon.
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Some have the ability to perceive that Hollywood is also in a nose dive.

Hollywood too was never perfect, yet the quality has just shifted and the pandering, the social manipulation and such more noticeable. I experience both old and new in fair quantity, which is where this perspective is based. To me the nose dives are nearing universal for each of the many entertainment media types I used to love. The dumbing down is also not limited to just entertainment either I believe.

Some may be wondering as to why I bother to experience the new/modern stuff when I dislike the majority of it: there is no escape. You cannot avoid things like the radio, advertisements, cultural reflection of the shit shoved down our throats and such. My partner is also a big consumer of "entertainment" tripe, much to my dismay. I am also hopeful of the few quality exceptions that come around and don't want to miss them, and lastly I like to not be left behind by the world socially/culturally-speaking, but it is a struggle regardless since I on average prefer the old.

Jonas, do you truly believe that in every way we are simply failing to perceive a case of SSDD? The other alternatives are that we are right, or that we are just bitter, jaded "Le wrong generation" types, but I think I personally made up my mind along time ago as to which it is when I played a long line of really crappy games that were continually hyped/shoved down my throat.
Back in the day I remember the popular content usually being deserving of its popularity...
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Re: The legacy of Deus Ex, 15 years later

Post by Jaedar »

Cybernetic pig wrote: Not only that but it is simulated, as we humans in real life can only drink so many fluids at one time...although I hear you play as the mythical Witcher in the game, but I don't know exactly what that entails and the dude looks human to me so it is safe to assume many real world rules apply to him.
The limitation doesn't come from the amount of fluid (potions don't have a lot of volume, you drink them in one swig). But potions are poisonous, and witchers can only survive drinking them because they are witchers. Even so, drinking an excess of potions is fatal.

In the first witcher, drinking a potion increase your toxicity level. The only way to reduce the toxicity is to rest or drink a potion that removes all potion effects and toxicity. Higher levels of toxicity also start fucking up your screen. I can't find any good pictures right now though.
In second, its much the same but due to restrictions on when you can drink it doesn't play as much part.
In third, the toxicity goes down very rapidly, which it of course must because potions only last a few seconds.
Cybernetic pig wrote:To me the nose dives are nearing universal for each of the many entertainment media types I used to love. The dumbing down is also not limited to just entertainment either I believe.
Ze decline!
Cybernetic pig wrote:Back in the day I remember the popular content usually being deserving of its popularity...
Eh, I am not so sure. I think there's some remembrance bias here, in that you don't remember the painfully generic bad stuff. We may all have been whining about CoD a few years back, but give it a few more and it will barely be remembered. Assuming they've stopped making them. I don't pay much attention to AAA these days.

I think a part of the problem is that the execs of neither hollywood or gaming industry really feel like the economy is stable and has recovered, so they don't dare to make any risks. I also think the parasitic aspects of the economy have grown quite a lot (just look at the way Greece is being handled). This is somewhat related to CEO's who seem to just chase good quarterly reports instead of long term goals.
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