It is currently Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:08 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequels 
Author Message
Silhouette

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:13 pm
Posts: 505
Post I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequels
I've given this quite a bit of thought over the years and replaying the original and then watching reviews for Deus Ex 4 (shit story and writing, basically), and watching some retrospectives on Deus Ex 3, here are my thoughts.

It's somewhat subtle, but in Dues Ex, events have happened. When you start, terrorists have already raided the island, Gunther has been taken hostage, orders have been given for UNATCO troops to pull back, and the commander is at the top of the statue. And so this essentially puts you in the role of an investigator, discovering the world, which is obviously important for an exploration-based game. Most events in the game in the game happen this way. Now is this due to limitations? Maybe, but it's the perfect pace the game needs. You're the explorer coming in and seeing how things have happened, and the changes you make will effect the game in events that will also have already happened by the time you're there.
One of the few exceptions here is the fight at battery park with UNATCO and the NSF, and the one in New York. But this underscores the battles happening, it's not meant to move the story along in any meaningful manner. Rather than just say that UNATCO is battling the NSF, you show it.
One of the big things is that it makes the enemies feel like actual people, and not just enemies to be mowed down or just simply in your way. They're not just obstacles. Of course it makes sense for people to be on patrol routes on Liberty Island since it's likely UNATCO will be sending in someone or a group to then resolve the situation. And maybe it's a limitation of the AI, but when they spot you, they don't shoot immediately. They react with dialogue. They're at first surprised to see you, since they're real people and they're waiting for someone to show up, but not you in particular. And so when Paul Denton tells you that they're real human beings, it's really sold by how you then experience the game. And then later in the game, the UNATCO soldiers will exclaim 'It's Denton!' because by then you're well known, at the start you're not. And so in the start it makes sense that you can get by the NSF since they really don't know about you in advance, and this helps sell the world as one that exists whether or not the player was there.
The narrative also supports this gameplay, and you believe it when characters tell you to hurry up to get to some objective, even if you literally can sit back and do nothing for a few hours, and then get to that objective and nothing will have changed. In the context of the game, I think this is forgivable.
So basically it made sense to explore the game as it had a lot of depth to it and you found out more of what was going on, at your own pace.

But in the sequels, many of the events are happening. So at the start you're escorting your girlfriend, and then terrorists attack right then and there. It's an event that's happening right now. So this might be more realistic, but this now it ruins the exploration element. Now that soldiers are attacking right now, you have to solve the situation immediately. On the spot. Sure, you don't technically have to move forward, but everything in the game is forcing you move forward. And so now the soldiers really are obstacles, since now you have to get to your objective (I forgot exactly what that was at the start). You're just being moved forward quickly, and then given information along with way by characters, and many times in a hamfisted manner.
The other thing highlighted in a video I watched was that after the prologue with the terrorist attack is that you're immediately plonked into your company headquarters. Okay this is fine since you can now explorer the building and talk to characters. But these actions aren't supported by the narrative, as at the same time there's a hostage situation that you have to take care of immediately. So there's an office to explore, but then there's a hostage situation that immediately has to get resolved at the same time. And you get messages to this effect. Now this might be realistic, but by asking the player to immediately head to the objective, you ruin the exploration element.
In the first game you sorted out the terrorist situation and then met your colleagues.
Also, once you start the game after the prologue, everyone knows you and has an opinion about you. And that's just after a prologue. In the first game the soldiers had an opinion on you because of your actions at the island, not after some fancy cutscenes and a railroad prologue. And so the soldiers and guards etc. don't feel real, and the game feels like it only exists because of you. And so it ruins the entire atmosphere of the game. I've only played Dues Ex 3 once, and will never play it again because there's really no soul to the game, despite the technical proficiency.

There's more to be said about the difference in writing and the characters, but a lot of that stems from the more action-orientated gameplay of the sequels, which then have to hand out information a lot faster and in smaller tidbits.


Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:47 am
Profile
NSF

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:43 am
Posts: 86
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
Yeah me too. It's always my first priority to install deus ex when I reinstall windows.


Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:11 pm
Profile
NSF

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:43 am
Posts: 86
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
But in Liberty Island, there exists no trace of any NSF locomotive or transport vessel. While in the sequel, they describe their arrival, their presence. In vanilla deus ex, many stories do not have a starting point. i.e what was the commander doing in the statue?. Also what bothers me is that, why would a tourist destination have a prison ?


Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:15 pm
Profile
NSF

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:43 am
Posts: 86
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
The prison in which Gunther Hermann was kept , a helipad right on top of the Wan Chai Market , a naval shipyard located in an urban residential area, the catacombs located near a mall. Etc these plot holes really bother me


Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:19 pm
Profile
Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2280
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
The original is just more intelligently and consistently designed in most respects. And it doesn't compromise the design for commercial gain. Not until the multiplayer patch and PS2 port anyway.

_________________
GMDX: Advancement Mod


Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:47 pm
Profile
Silhouette

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:13 pm
Posts: 505
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
Shameless plug! I made a youtube episode about this topic on my channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HByvPWNtWnI


Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:48 am
Profile
NSF

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:43 am
Posts: 86
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
Quote:
The original is just more intelligently and consistently designed in most respects. And it doesn't compromise the design for commercial gain. Not until the multiplayer patch and PS2 port anyway.


1. What's an out-of-order power station, hastily designed prison cell and a secure military base doing in a tourist destination ?
2. What's an underground modernly-decorated command center doing inside an abandoned museum-tourist destination ?
3. What's an airfield doing in a residential commercial area ?
4. Whats a multinational corporation's entrance doing in Hong Kong's sewers ?
5. What's a virus-testing field doing near lakes ?
6. What's a catacomb doing near a shopping mall?
7. What's a thug doing near a heavily-patrolled area ?
8. What's a Forty and Cigarette Container doing in a casket with a 50% lock strength ?
9. What's a Gray-Death manufacturing plant doing in a densely populated residential area ?
10. What's a hideout of a conspirator doing in a normal residential area ?
11. What's a man thinking when he makes his own corporation and tries to be secluded, secretive and concealed from the public ?
12. What's a terrorist command center doing in a densely populated urban area ?
13. What's a pilot thinking when he's being monitored and disobeying orders ?
14. What's an anti terrorist organization doing when they monitor their agents disobeying orders ?
15. What's an elderly man doing in a Life Support Base near two atomic bombs ?
16. What's a government organization doing with weaponry in a densely populated area?
17. What's a mechanic doing in Everett's apartment despite it being secluded and secretive from any location
18. What's a street doing with no roads ?
19 What's a freedom organization doing killing and endangering civilians
20. Last but not the least. WHAT IS A MISSILE'S PURPOSE WHEN IT HITS A SURFACE ?
it demolishes everything. But in Page's Bunker. A metal streetlight remains unharmed ? Wow =D>


Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:34 pm
Profile
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Posts: 14191
Location: Hafnia
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
Heheh you're making a fair few good points there, but LaGuardia is an actual airport situated smack dab in the middle of NYC next to Riker's Island. Also I'm pretty sure there are entrances to the Paris Catacombs fucking everywhere, up to and including random people's basements.

_________________
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

You can buy my games on Steam if you like 'em.
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine


Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:33 pm
Profile WWW
Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2280
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
Many of those questions would be self-evident If only you paid attention, Skrillax. Others are just plain stupid. There may be one or two valid points in there, if that.

Some further counter examples:

Quote:
What's an out-of-order power station, hastily designed prison cell and a secure military base doing in a tourist destination ?


The "hastily designed prison cell" is a makeshift cell. Likely originally a storage room. Isn't that obvious?

Quote:
10. What's a hideout of a conspirator doing in a normal residential area ?


Perhaps you're referring to the MJ12 lab in the water treatment plant? That's a little like asking why does organized crime gangs operate in normal residential areas. That's what MJ12 after all essentially are: a gang of criminals, just with resources and strict organization.
Additionally, the areas are not "normal" as we understand it. New York is in turmoil. There's open battles in the streets. The population is ravaged by the gray death. Pay attention, man.

Quote:
What's a mechanic doing in Everett's apartment despite it being secluded and secretive from any location


You've never heard of a mole? Furthermore the location is not exactly secret and secluded in this context. He was an MJ12 mole. MJ12 having been formed by ex-Illuminati. Their existence and location is no secret to Page, and even if they went in to hiding I'm sure the new location would not be difficult for Page to deduce, especially if the mole was always under Everrett's employment.

Quote:
What's a freedom organization doing killing and endangering civilians


UNATCO or the NSF?

NSF: It's a disorganized organization. People join with their own agenda. This is explained repeatedly and obviously. Some are fighting for freedom and a cure, others are just abusing the NSF's resources. Furthermore even the "good" guys in the NSF are probably not adverse to endangering civilians. Collateral damage is to be expected in a war, and is sometimes an unavoidable means to an end. They're desperate and can't pick and choose their battlefield.

UNATCO: they're not a "freedom organization". They're an anti-terrorist organization. On the surface. Underneath they are corrupt and are doing MJ12's bidding.
The concepts of collateral damage and a means to an end and not being able to pick their battlefield all apply here too.

Quote:
20. Last but not the least. WHAT IS A MISSILE'S PURPOSE WHEN IT HITS A SURFACE ?
it demolishes everything. But in Page's Bunker. A metal streetlight remains unharmed ? Wow =D>


The bunker entrance got lucky:

Quote:
XANDER

The blast was incredible. If it wasn't for the hill, we'd all be puffs of smoke.
I lost a lot of friends today


Try harder next time and be wary of revealing your inattentiveness and stupidity.

_________________
GMDX: Advancement Mod


Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:23 pm
Profile
MJ12

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 451
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
There are even a couple of datacubes pointing out to the NSF's view of collateral damage, but placing military encampments inside villages has its own benefits in the real world (Hezbollah, a terrorist organization operating in Lebanon, is taken as an example):

A. It's a great recruiting station, especially if the general population is poor and has high rates of unemployment.
B. Even if they aren't fighters, they can be scouts - kids are inconspicuous, shepherds know the lay of the land and reach farther without raising suspicion, and inner city movement can be reported by citizens.
C. They act as a preventive shield from artillery and other mass uses of force, and as an obstruction during combat.
D. Inner city infrastructure that you're familiar can be used as an extremely effective battleground for guerilla combat. Tunnels can connect buildings, every porch can be used as a sniper's nest, a machine gun nest or an AT rocket emplacement.
E. If the entire area is impoverished, a single militarized village can legitimize and give good PR to the terrorist organization as its economy is blooming (due to the influx of jobs), allowing it to expand.

This is counterbalanced by two things - it's immoral, and when a fight does break you lose your legitimacy fast. If you only care about winning, though, surrounding your military bases with civilian population is a good tactic that's been used by many terrorist (or freedom fighting, depending on your outlook) organizations: Everyone in Syria and Iraq (global Jihad, the PKK and YPG, Jabhat al-Nusra, etc.), ISIS, Hezbollah and Hamas, and probably in other places that aren't the Middle East too.


Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:49 pm
Profile
NSF

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:43 am
Posts: 86
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
Quote:
Many of those questions would be self-evident If only you paid attention, Skrillax. Others are just plain stupid. There may be one or two valid points in there, if that.

Some further counter examples:



Quote:
What's an out-of-order power station, hastily designed prison cell and a secure military base doing in a tourist destination ?




The "hastily designed prison cell" is a makeshift cell. Likely originally a storage room. Isn't that obvious?



Quote:
10. What's a hideout of a conspirator doing in a normal residential area ?




Perhaps you're referring to the MJ12 lab in the water treatment plant? That's a little like asking why does organized crime gangs operate in normal residential areas. That's what MJ12 after all essentially are: a gang of criminals, just with resources and strict organization.
Additionally, the areas are not "normal" as we understand it. New York is in turmoil. There's open battles in the streets. The population is ravaged by the gray death. Pay attention, man.



Quote:
What's a mechanic doing in Everett's apartment despite it being secluded and secretive from any location




You've never heard of a mole? Furthermore the location is not exactly secret and secluded in this context. He was an MJ12 mole. MJ12 having been formed by ex-Illuminati. Their existence and location is no secret to Page, and even if they went in to hiding I'm sure the new location would not be difficult for Page to deduce, especially if the mole was always under Everrett's employment.



Quote:
What's a freedom organization doing killing and endangering civilians




UNATCO or the NSF?

NSF: It's a disorganized organization. People join with their own agenda. This is explained repeatedly and obviously. Some are fighting for freedom and a cure, others are just abusing the NSF's resources. Furthermore even the "good" guys in the NSF are probably not adverse to endangering civilians. Collateral damage is to be expected in a war, and is sometimes an unavoidable means to an end. They're desperate and can't pick and choose their battlefield.

UNATCO: they're not a "freedom organization". They're an anti-terrorist organization. On the surface. Underneath they are corrupt and are doing MJ12's bidding.
The concepts of collateral damage and a means to an end and not being able to pick their battlefield all apply here too.



Quote:
20. Last but not the least. WHAT IS A MISSILE'S PURPOSE WHEN IT HITS A SURFACE ?
it demolishes everything. But in Page's Bunker. A metal streetlight remains unharmed ? Wow =D>




The bunker entrance got lucky:



Quote:
XANDER

The blast was incredible. If it wasn't for the hill, we'd all be puffs of smoke.
I lost a lot of friends today




Try harder next time and be wary of revealing your inattentiveness and stupidity.


Why do you have to interrupt and argue with me on EVERYTHING :evil:


Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:11 pm
Profile
Illuminati

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 2280
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
You...quoted me. You instigated this. And this is our second argument, if you're counting.

Take your meds.

_________________
GMDX: Advancement Mod


Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:00 pm
Profile
NSF

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:43 am
Posts: 86
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
Quote:
You...quoted me. You instigated this. And this is our second argument, if you're counting.

Take your meds.


Laughter is the best medicine. That's what people get when they look at you :lol:


Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:04 pm
Profile
NSF

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:43 am
Posts: 86
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
Quote:
Perhaps you're referring to the MJ12 lab in the water treatment plant? That's a little like asking why does organized crime gangs operate in normal residential areas. That's what MJ12 after all essentially are: a gang of criminals, just with resources and strict organization.
Additionally, the areas are not "normal" as we understand it. New York is in turmoil. There's open battles in the streets. The population is ravaged by the gray death. Pay attention, man.


Look, stupid, I'm alluding to Morgan E's apartment not that underground sewage facility


Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:44 pm
Profile
MJ12

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 451
Post Re: I think I've discovered why I like Dues Ex over the sequ
SkrillaX, Jesus fucking Christ, you can't throw a fit every time someone has an opinion that isn't yours. This a forum filled with adults, and we don't need a child.
Your claims were refuted, that's all.

Regarding Everett, the Illuminati have always hid in plain view, and have been the elite - the wealthy and the powerful. Open the Wiki, read the in-game text or know your conspiracy theories - it's all there.

Even regarding Dowd's sarcophagus kitchen cabinet, it's pretty obvious he lives in the graveyard, at least temporarily - he has a computer terminal there, a safe, and a bunch of other supplies. Using a sarcophagus as a kitchen cabinet is morbid, sure, but it works. This isn't even a claim worth refuting because nothing (officially) supports it ASIDE from every bit of the world building in that map.


Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:00 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forum/DivisionCore.